On 2021-06-08 at 07:10:36, Jeff King wrote: > On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 04:57:48PM +0000, Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget wrote: > > > If we use singular "they/them" pronouns instead of "he/him" or "she/her" > > pronouns, then we can avoid this congitive load on the reader. > > > > Using singular "they" is also incredibly efficient. Choosing a gendered > > pronoun is usually arbitrary between "he" or "she". Using constructs > > such as "he or she", "s/he", or "(s)he" are more complicated than > > singular "they". > > In general, I do like the efficiency and readability of singular "they". > As a native speaker, I have no problem reading it, and I have little > sense that most of my native-speaker acquaintances would, either. I agree. I'm very much in favor of singular "they". > I _do_ worry that it would be jarring or difficult to read for > non-native speakers (or perhaps native speakers who aren't in my circle > of acquaintances). There have been a few comments to that effect on the > list, but it's hard to consider that data and not anecdotes. I have heard these arguments, and as a someone who speaks two other languages, I'm sympathetic to the argument that this is a little tricky. For me, personally, I liken it to the French "on" (one), which can be used in many, but not all, places that "nous" (we) is used, to reflect the first-person plural, but with some slightly different shades of meaning. This is a tricky part of the language and it's a hard one to get right, but it's also extremely commonly used, so it's nearly obligatory to be comfortable with it in order to be reasonably conversant in French. Similarly, singular "they" is extremely common in informal written English (e.g., texts and tweets) and nearly ubiquitous in spoken English, where people use it routinely without thinking[0]. So while I am in favor of making things easier for non-native speakers, this is so common in actual usage that it's practically unavoidable and it's a feature of the language that almost every speaker will be exposed to and they will need to be comfortable with it to function effectively. Given this context, I'm comfortable with adopting this change. > One thing that gives me some comfort is your research here: > > > Perhaps due to similar reasons, official style guides have changed their > > stance on singuler "they" in recent years. For example, the APA style > > guide changed their official recommendation in 2019 [1]. The MLA > > handbook also references helpful ways to use singular "they" [2]. While > > not fully endorsing it, the Chicago Manual of Style has removed its > > blanket ban on singular "they" [3] (the previous recommendation was to > > only use "it" as a singular non-gendered pronoun). > > > > [1] https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they > > [2] https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/ > > [3] https://libraries.indiana.edu/chicago-manual-style-singular-pronoun-they > > I don't know to what degree those style guidelines take into account > non-native speakers. But they at least provide a sense that this style > is in wide-ish use. And probably growing use, as well, considering that > they have changed recently. So even if it may be surprising to some > readers at first, I hope it may become less so as time goes on and > projects (like ours) make it more commonplace. I agree that this is becoming more common, not less, and that it is gaining acceptance by many authorities. > So I think this is a reasonable style suggestion to put in our > guidelines. I agree with this as well. [0] I have noticed this to be true of non-native but fluent colleagues, for example. -- brian m. carlson (he/him or they/them) Toronto, Ontario, CA
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