Hey, On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 4:10 AM, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Sun, 5 Jun 2011, Michael Nahas wrote: >> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>> Michael Nahas <mike.nahas@xxxxxxxxx> writes: >>> >>>> Quick list of recommendations: >>>> >>>> 1. Pick aliases for the next commit and the working tree that act like >>>>  Âcommits on the command-line. >>> >>> No go. ÂThis was asked for many times, and each time shot down. >>> Those "aliases" / pseudo-refs looks like commits but do not behave >>> exactly like commits. ÂThis would increase connfusion. >> >> I'm glad it was discussed. ÂI think users would know that those >> commits were special (they are writeable after all), but I'm sure more >> informed people than I made the same arguments. > > Perhaps we should add conclusion / summary of this discussion either > somewhere on git wiki (http://git.wiki.kernel.org), or e.g. on gitcli(7) > manpage, so that it won't get reiterated again and again. ÂIt is sort > of frequently asked question^W request. Can you cite any of these threads please? I also thought this was a reasonable suggestion and don't remember these previous discussions. Also, to be fair, I've been pretty active in this community for a long time now and I honestly don't ever remember seeing the 'gitcli' manpage, so don't feel too bad Michael. > >>>> 2. Adopt a (semi-)formal notation for describing what commands do. >>> >>> Whom it would help? ÂNot an ordinary user. >> >> I think it would help experts in discussing exactly what happens. ÂFor >> ordinary users that are hitting an intricate case (or don't know >> English very well), it would be good if there was something that would >> tell them mathematically what occurs. > > Well, semi-formal notation could help, but I am not sure if it would > really be easier to understand than textual description. I think some notational format like this would be way, way easier to understand than, for instance, the current git-reset page, which is almost impossible to follow. > What about (well, more rarely used) "git reset <commit> -- <path>"? > But I quite like "git unadd" alias, even if "git unadd <commit> <path>" > looks strange; we have precedent in the form of "git stage" command > (alias). > I actually sort of dislike the idea of an alias, even though I'm probably mostly to blame for the introduction of the 'git stage' alias in the first place. I do feel, however, that 'reset' and 'checkout' are horribly and confusingly overloaded and introducing a couple of new porcelain commands to do a subset of their functionality in a safer and more friendly manner would be hugely helpful. I would actually like to start treating 'reset' as more of a plumbing command, since it is so incredibly confusing and does so many different things. I think it would be better to introduce things like 'unadd' or 'unstage', 'revert-file' to revert file contents in the work tree, 'uncommit' to do 'reset HEAD~', 'unmerge' to do a 'reset --hard' but check that we are in a conflicted merge state, etc. Not just aliases, but commands that run 'reset' or 'checkout' in the background but have command specific options and help pages. Knowing that 'reset' is how you do all of these things is not intuitive. Knowing that some options to 'reset' and 'checkout' are work tree unsafe and others are safe is not intuitive in addition to scaring people into not using or figuring out the other options because they're scared of the unsafe invocations. >> (And renaming "git checkout -- <path>" to some >> yet-to-be-named other command.) > > I think this one could be left as is, at least until a really good name > for said replacement appears ("git revert" means something else, and > "git revert-file" is a bit long, and can be confused with currently > not existing but proposed and discussed "git revert <revision> <pathspec>".) I would really like to not introduce more ways of making one command do totally different things depending on if it gets a file path limiter or not. >>>> My recommendations are: >>>> >>>> 1. Pick aliases for the next commit and the working tree that act like >>>> commits on the command-line. > [...] >>>> For the alias for the next commit and working tree, I suggest "NEXT" >>>> and "WTREE". Creating these aliases will make the interface more >>>> regular. It will remove oddities like "diff --cached FOO" and replace >>>> them with "diff NEXT FOO" and mean that "diff" and "diff FOO" can be >>>> explained as "diff WTREE NEXT" and "diff WTREE FOO". >>> >>> This idea ws proposed multiple time on git mailing list, and every >>> time it was rejected. > [...] >> That this idea has been brought up multiple times says that it does >> have some merit. ÂBut apparently not enough merit. > > No, this only means that people *think* it has merit. ÂAnd perhaps > that they are poisoned by Subversion's pseudo-refs ;-P Just for the record, I've never used Subversion, have a pretty solid understanding of Git internals and I thought this was a good idea. For example, implementation details aside, I think having something like WTREE and NEXT available would help users understand that there are these 3 trees that are important and useful in Git and re-inforce a very non-SVN style workflow in that manner. Having people learn '--cached', which just makes no sense in most contexts, is confusing. It's great that it's there, but it's not necessary to know the difference to use git in almost any circumstances. I never remember what the difference is, but I rarely, if ever, run into a case where I need to use one where I haven't just memorized the invocation I need. For example, 'rm --cached', and 'diff --cached' are just commands I use because I know what they do, not because I remember the semantics of --cached over --index (if --index even is applicable in these cases, which I don't think it is). > >>> BTW. both index and worktree have their own "aliases", namely ':0:' >>> for index (stage 0), and ':' or ':/' for top tree. >> >> Really? ÂWhere can these aliases be used? > > Well, actually they _currently_ cannot be used in many places. > > You can view version of file as it is in the index with > > Â$ git show :0:path/to/file > > You can add file from a top of project directory (given new enough git; > I think it isn't in any released git version yet) with > > Â$ git add :/path/to/file > > independently on subdirectory you are in (i.e. --full-tree). > > > But the main point was meant to be that even if there was some merit > to the pseudo-tree-ish aliases, ':0:' or '::' or ':0' would be better > that NEXT / STAGE / INDEX that looks like symbolic refs and therefore > commits but ain't, and ':/' would be better that WORK / WTREE. Please be kidding. I just don't understand how you can honestly suggest to someone that "git show :0:/path/to/file.txt" makes more sense to anyone then "git show NEXT:/path/to/file.txt" would. I have no idea if ':0:' or '::' work anywhere, but if they ever do, I guarantee they will be used by practically nobody. >>> Second, it doesn't solve issue of needing --cached and/or --index >>> swiches completely. ÂThose pseudo-almost-refs hide them for "git diff", >>> "git grep", "git ls-files", perhaps "git submodule" where we *read* >>> from index, but not for "git apply", "git rm" or "git stash" where >>> those swicthes affect *writing*. >> >> I agree with you that it would not get rid of all switches. ÂI never >> expected it to. ÂMy major aim was to simplify things like the "diff" >> command, which I have trouble remembering the different variations of. Nearly everybody does, which is why I also believe his argument has merit. > You miss the point of this. ÂThe issue is that you have to learn about > '--cached' and '--index' *anyway* (because pseudo-almost-refs do not > solve everything), and for consistency and backward compatibility we > need to support '--cached' for "git diff" etc., so you proposal brings > nothing but new thing to learn (and not only syntax, but quirks as well). > > So you only add to required knowledgebase, not reduce it. Though I already argued against this, I would reiterate it. You do not have to learn about those switches to use Git. You don't have to be able to do everything in Git before you can do anything. I do not know of a single command I've ever used where I needed to know the difference - it almost never comes up in daily use for nearly all Git users. Can you come up with an example other than 'apply' that takes both options? If a user doesn't use 'apply' (and I think the vast majority doesn't), then a simpler alternative that is more universally applicable would reduce the required knowledgebase for almost all Git users. >>> Hrmmm... how this notation would explain differences between >>> "git reset --hard", "git reset --keep" and "git reset --merge"? >> >> I don't understand what "git reset --keep" and "git reset --merge" do. >> I've read the manpage but am still confused. ÂOne of my reasons for >> suggesting a notation is so that there is a clear mathematical >> representation of what the commands do. ÂOnce I understand them, I can >> make an attempt at a notation that can explain them. > > What I meant here is that above notation wouldn't help explaining the > differences between --hard, --keep and --merge. ÂPerhaps a table could > help there. > > But IMVHO is more important for documentation to tell *when* one would > use one or another, not how they work. Just to I also have no idea how to use --keep and --merge. I think it would be useful to have both - I've read the one example of how to use --keep, but I've never used it and if I ran into that specific use-case, I'm sure I wouldn't even remember that something was there to help. >>>> 3. Move the operations "checkout -- <file>" and "reset -- <file>" to >>>> their own command names >>>> >>>> This is my biggest and most important suggestion. >>>> >>>> "checkout -- foo.txt" copies foo.txt from NEXT to WTREE. Similarly, >>>> "reset -- foo.txt" will copy foo.txt from HEAD to NEXT. >>> >>> Â"checkout HEAD -- foo.txt" copies foo.txt from HEAD to NEXT and WTREE >>> >>> Â"checkout HEAD^ -- foo.txt" copies foo.txt from HEAD^ to NEXT and WTREE >>> Â"reset HEAD^ -- foo.txt" copies foo.txt from HEAD^ to NEXT >>> >>>> These are operations to designate/undesignate files in the next commit >>>> and should be grouped with others like them: "add", "rm" and "mv". (In >>>> fact, the man page for "reset -- <file>" even says that it is the >>>> opposite of "add"!) > [...] > >>>>ÂFor the other, my best suggestion is "head-to-next", but I'm sure >>>> someone can do better. >>> >>> I'd rather remember that "git checkout" is about checking out >>> something to a working area. >> >> Now that I've separated these two usages of "checkout" in my brain, >> "git checkout <branch>" is all about changing to a different branch. >> That files in the working tree change is just incidental to moving to >> the new branch. >> >> The manpage paragraph for "git checkout -- <file>" has in bold that >> this usage "does not switch branches". ÂSo, for me, it's a completely >> different usage and should be a different command. > > For me it is about "checking out" two different entities: a branch > (or related case of non-branch ref, e.g. "git checkout v1.7.3", or > "git checkout HEAD~2"), or a pathspec (file or directory). ÂChecking > out branch means making it current branch, checking out file means > making this version of a file current. > >> I wish I had a reasonable name to suggest for the new command. > > Good name is a required prerequisite here, unfortunately... Actually, I'm pretty sure even an amazing name wouldn't help here. I'm a bit surprised that you would reference the previous WTREE/NEXT discussions, but not the discussions we've had on this topic: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/121206/focus=121317 I've brought up splitting checkout and simplifying some commands the way EasyGit has done and none other than Linus himself shot it down and that was nearly 2 years ago. Sadly, the chances of getting any UI improvements of this nature in seem quite remote, and have been for some time. I would like to thank Michael for taking so much time to propose a thoughtful response to the UI issues that so many people struggle with instead of just complaining, as most do. I would love if we could compile suggestions like these and shoot for a Git 2.0 with a much nicer UI and help system. However, it seems unlikely that Junio would go for this. It seems somewhat more likely that what would happen is that a simpler, cleaner libgit2 based cli would emerge at some point with an 80% most-used functionality and super nice UI mentality, but that wouldn't be for some time. Scott -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html