Hi all, (evil top quoting because I don't really know where to start replying) I really don't know where the problem is here. Peter, when we spoke in Berlin last time we discussed tito aka menu search, the outcome was: - it's not even visible by default - it has a shortcut that pops up a simple search entry - as you enter text, you essentially search all the text associated with menu items and their actions - you select an item, done It was pretty much our agreement that it's an unobtrusive additional way to find stuff in our huge menu forest, for people who have a text based memory rather than one that easily remembers menu locations. It's also good for people who prefer to use the keyboard instead of a menu. There are simply not enough shortcuts, let alone mental capacity to remember potential shortcuts for all menu items. It's basically what gnome shell does: enter activity mode, enter some text, press return, done. Now this is exactly what the current state of the implementation already is (alomst), it just needs a little fine tuning. Sorry but I'm really confused. Regards, --Mitch On Mon, 2014-01-27 at 22:23 +0100, peter sikking wrote: > Jehan, > > please read again what I wrote: > > >> let me first of all say this in general about the process we are > >> doing. at this moment I feel we are still working backwards, i.e. > >> you are answering to me what the code does. > >> > >> we have to work forward, else there will be no progress. > >> > >> this means we write down the goal/purpose/vision that you have > >> for TITo (sorry, internal code name still rocks for discussions). > >> you make the choices, I just make sure that what we end up with > >> 1) makes sense in GIMP context > >> 2) is internally consistent > >> 3) is short, sharp and complete > >> > >> once we got this goal written down, it is possible to > >> review the spec to see what is missing and what is getting > >> in the way of the goal. > > now it would be good if we actually start doing that. > > >>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Michael Natterer <mitch@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > >>>> "action" is meant as technical term here. A menu item is a view > >>>> on an internal action, and they include: > >>>> - all menu items > >>>> - all tools > >>>> - all menu-invokable dialogs > >>>> - some esoteric stuff which we'd probably filter out to avoid confusion > >>> Indeed. > >> > >> if I read that right it still boils down to that you only want to > >> search menu items. this needs to be called that way for clarification. > > > > No. As said above, actions are *not* just menu items. There are a wide > > list of commands that Mitch listed above. > > aha, that was completely not clear. > > >> now if I am wrong, and you do want to be able to search more > >> like am the ‘actions’ in the dockable dialogs > >> (example: Brushes dialog->Create a new brush) then you need to > >> make that clear explicitly. > > > > Well, yes. We made it clear by saying we search all actions. :-) > > actions are a means to an end. we are in the process of clarifying > the ‘end’ here, not the means (picking the means comes later). > > so now we better get busy. > > the word ‘actions’ is now loaded as an internal implementation > detail. to avoid confusion, it cannot be used in a goal definition. > > you could take the wide-ranging option and say: > > ‘search all that users can perform and change in GIMP’ > > or > > get specific and make a complete list (‘types’, not ‘instances’) > of what you want to be searched by TITo, for instance: > > - all menu items > - everything that can be performed in dockable dialogs > - all tool options > - all operations tools can perform on the canvas > - all settings in preferences and co. > > it needs to be in language that gets the point across > exactly, without the reader being required to be a > GIMP developer. > > >> it is better now to concentrate on _all_ the reasons you > >> want this to be useful for GIMP users. > >> > >> now is the time for you to decide whether ‘when one knows they > >> exist but can't find anymore’ is the one and only reason TITo > >> is valuable/useful for GIMP users. if there is more, you have > >> to clarify that mow. > > > > No it is not the "only" reason. This was more an example, thus an > > error on my side to cite here. The real goal is «searching and > > running» actions. And this by itself contains all the reasons I think > > it is useful for. Now "searching" can imply a lot of sub-reasons. > > yes, and we need to get these reasons on the table, because > without them there is no point in introducing the tool (and > certainly not claim a keyboard shortcut). > > > The > > «I know this action exists (because I used it before, for instance) > > and I want to find it again» would indeed be a typical one. > > and here is where some QA form my side has to start: > > > Another > > would be «I don't know GIMP by heart, but I know graphics editing, and > > there are usually blur effects. So instead of going through endless > > menus, I open the search and type "blur" and search through the 3/4 > > results I get». > > (first of all I think all blur examples have to be banned. there > is nothing to search about blur, it is under Filters->blur, end > of story. if it is not clear that it is to be found in the Filters > menu, or as a toolbox tool, then this user needs an introductory > course in GIMP, which can (today) only be delivered by a web browser > or a book.) > > anyway, GIMP is a designed to be a tool for masters, or for > users on their path to become a master (beginners, intermediates). > any other use is not considered when designing the UI. > > so if someone comes to GIMP (s)he is either a master in another > graphics app, or not. in the latter case (s)he can be considered > and helped, as a beginner or intermediate GIMP user. > > from this there are 2 conclusions: > > - we really need to talk about how you envision TITo being useful for > GIMP masters, beginners and intermediates; most of this will > involve learning to use GIMP; > - that leaves only masters of other programs coming to GIMP to > consider in this discussion. > > since they are masters in another programme the will hate not > being all-powerful in GIMP. so they will want to master GIMP > as fast as they can (think of it as grokking). > > - for all the terms that GIMP has in common with other graphics > programs (blur, dodge, fill, paint) the value of searching > for them will be nearly zero, they are placed where they belong. > - the terms that GIMP does not have in common with all other > graphics programs need a synonym list, a mapping between the > non-GIMP terms in other programs to the GIMP term; > - if the search does not give a match to the non-GIMP term > this master user entered, this user will be angry within seconds > (‘useless!’) > - a lot of these operations are not one-shot, they either fit in > a GIMP way of doing things or have their own set of parameters; > to grok this, invoking it or pointing out where it lives in the > UI is not enough; it needs a short, sharp manual page; > > - to summarise the above, TITo has to be competitive with > googling "GIMP <user’s search term>" > > ...or else be ‘useless!’ > > --ps > > founder + principal interaction architect > man + machine interface works > > http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture > > > > _______________________________________________ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@xxxxxxxxx List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
