Thanks for sharing the information. that would be useful if we supports the panose and sFamilyClass in the future. I'm listening. Well, I have no concrete plans to do it so far though. I could have some testing in libeasyfc first and port it to fontconfig later perhaps if it's really useful. On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 9:26 PM, <mpsuzuki@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Hi, > > Sorry for lated participation to the discussion. For first, > please let me explain what Japanese experts had ever done. > I mention about the relationship between Chinese typeface > category name and Japanese one, it does NOT mean that I'm > saying as "follow to Japanese classification". On contrally, > I want to hear the counter proposal from Chinese experts, > to prevent Japanese-specific hooks into fontconfig. > > -- > > An organization, TrueType Consortium Japan had ever defined > the values of IBM FamilyClass & Panose for Japanese typefaces, > for guiding font fallbacks in 1996. Their categorizaton was > following: > > Mincho Class=1, SubClass=5, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 > Kyokasho(*) Class=1, SubClass=8, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 > Soucho Class=1, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=2 > > Kaku-Gothic Class=8, SubClass=1, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=11 > Maru-Gothic Class=8, SubClass=9, PanoseFamily=2, PanoseSerif=15 > > Kaisho Class=10, SubClass=7, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Gyousho Class=10, SubClass=6, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Sousho Class=10, SubClass=6, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Reisho Class=10, SubClass=8, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Pen-ji Class=10, SubClass=5, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > > Edo-moji Class=9, SubClass=2, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > Tensho Class=9, SubClass=0, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=15 > Kointai(**) Class=9, SubClass=1, PanoseFamily=3, PanoseSerif=0 > > Pop(Mincho) Class=9, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=2 > Pop(K-Gothic) Class=9, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=11 > Pop(M-Gothic) Class=9, SubClass=3, PanoseFamily=4, PanoseSerif=15 > > I will explain the typeface names if needed, so please post > a request. The rough mapping between the names for Chinese > typeface classification would be: > > SungTi/SongTi/MingTi --> Mincho > HeiTi --> Gothic (***) > FangSong --> Soucho > Kaishu --> Kaisho > XingShu --> Gyosho > CaoShu --> Sousho > LiShu --> Reisho > ZhuanShu --> Tensho > > This is based on current Japanese cultural recognizations of > typefaces, so the classification is incorrect from the viewpoint > of the historical development of the writing systems, and too > cursory (e.g. Edo-moji is a name calling various calligraphic > styles for different purposes, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edomoji ). > > > (*) Kyokasho is a typeface based on Mincho, designed for the > textbooks in the elementary schools. A core charset for the > educations in elementary schools are requested to simulate > the Kaishu typeface (by government), to prevent the confusion > by seeing different glyphic shapes between Mincho and Kaishu. > > (**) Kointai is a name saying "a typeface looking like old > sealing stamp". It sounds aslike if it were post-Qin seal > scripts, but the glyphs of the products in Japanese markets > with this name look like as "damaged (or poorly stone-rubbed) > LiShu". > > (***) Often Japanese Sans-Serif typefaces are distinguished by > the edge shape of the end of strokes; if the angles are left > at the end (looking like the rectangle), they are called as > Kaku-Gothic - if the edge is blunted/rounded, they are called > as Maru-Gothic. However, there is a remarkable tendency that > Maru-Gothic typefaces are designed to be more geometrically > and puffed, so a confusion between Kaku- and Maru-Gothic is > becoming popular gradually. > > -- > > As I've written before, I think the variety of the typeface > families bundled to the liberated (e.g. GNU/Linux), or the > minimum configuration of the personal computers (e.g. Microsoft > Windows without Microsoft Office, nor additional language pack) > would not be so large. In Japan, a pair of Serif & Sans Serif > (called Mincho & Gothic) is recognized as the minimum configuration. > Other fonts, Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, Kyokasho, Gyosho, Sousho > etc are quite exceptional. Even on Microsoft Windows, the bare > operating systems do not have. Although Microsoft Office bundles > these typefaces, it is rare that the office documents using them. > > Thus, Japanese popular scenario of font substitution during > the cross platform document interchange would be the fallback > from non-basic families (Rounded-Gothic, Kaisho, etc) to > basic families (Gothic, Mincho). I think most Japanese people > do not complain that the substitution from Kaisho to Mincho. > > # I think Japanese publishing using Kaisho fonts are quite few. > > Thus, the fine granurarity classifications of Kaisho, Gyosho, > Sousho are not discussed, because they are not recognized as > essential. Although Kaishu by Wang Xishin and by Yang Zhenqing > show remarkable contrast, the computer users having 2 different > Kaishu fonts for them were expected to be quite quite few. > > In addition, because of the difference of the user community, > the charset supported by the fonts are often different. > The basic typefaces, Mincho & Gothic are always exposed to > the pressure to wider charset. But such pressure to non-basic > typefaces, like Kisho, is not so strong. > > -- > > For automatic, zero-configured, or hardwired font substitution > of Chinese fonts, following discussions are expected. > > 1) the definition of the basic categories of the fonts. > if what kind of features are required for the category, > it should be noted. > > for example, if a system has only 2 typefaces, Mincho and > Gothic, Gothic is always designed to be "heavier" than > Mincho, because Gothic is basically used for the titles etc. > > 2) the investigation of the instances of the basic categories > that are commonly availbable on the users environment. > about the Microsoft products, > http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/family.aspx > would be good resource to check if the fonts are avaible > in the minimum configuration, or the users must have some > extra products. > > 3) the discussion of the mapping from the basic categories to > the instances. For example, if BeiWeiKaiShu fonts are missing, > it should be substituted by other (non-Beiwei) Kaishu? Or, > fallback to FangSong is better? > > If there is any referential materials already, please let me > know. > > Regards, > mpsuzuki > > On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:08:02 +0800 > BlissSam <m13253@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> >>Sorry for the delay of this mail. For I am busy these couple of days. >> >>So let us provide a tool to generate fallback rules instead of making >>user write XML conf on their own from scratch. Also it can generate >>some other things useful (e.g. preference, anti-alias and so on). >> >>Simply allow a method of `bind' some font families together and tell >>fontconfig that these fonts are `compatible', so fontconfig will choose >>other fonts if one is missing. >> >>And the font substitution can be more smart, user can specify whether >>only to fallback when a font is missing, or to replace whenever that >>font is installed; also, some users may want to substitute only on >>screen or when printing. >> >>---------------------------------------- >>> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:39 +0200 >>> Subject: Re: Request for implementing font substitution >>for CJK fonts > From: nicolas.mailhot@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> To: m13253@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> CC: akira@xxxxxxxxx; fontconfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> What we do in Fedora is shipping fallback rules with the font >>themselves in > the same package so if font foo is installed the >>package also declares to > fontconfig it's an acceptable substitute for >>bar, but if the user didn't > install foo the system does not waste >>time processing rules for fonts which > are not available. >>> >>> And BTW it's very dangerous to declare a substitution rule for a >>popular font, > because your substitution font will then be used in >>lots of contexts and if > it's not as good (design or coverage-wise) as >>the original font users won't be > happy at all. >>> >>> -- >>> Nicolas Mailhot >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Fontconfig mailing list >>Fontconfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig > _______________________________________________ > Fontconfig mailing list > Fontconfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig -- Akira TAGOH _______________________________________________ Fontconfig mailing list Fontconfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/fontconfig
