Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Fri, 2009-05-22 at 08:07 -0600, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 20:12 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote:
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:09:18AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2009-05-21 at 13:25 -0400, Christopher Beland wrote:
Based on the recent conversations on this list, I have updated:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Flash
As the page is generically named, and Fedora is a project with a strong
emphasis on F/OSS, I would suggest the page should more prominently
discuss and advocate F/OSS alternatives (gnash and swfdec) and position
the Adobe plugin as a fallback for cases where those solutions are not
sufficient. Also, it should refer more specifically to the Adobe plugin
when saying things like "Flash is Non-Free Software". WDYT?
I added a top-side admonition, taking the text directly from our
existing [[ForbiddenItems]] page. We should maintain equivalency
between those pages. (I would have liked to transclude just that
section, but didn't know how.)
Because, at least, (1) the use of Adobe's plugin is not illegal
anywhere to our knowledge, and (2) the use of Adobe's software
repository does not, as far as we know, present problems of potential
contributory infringement, this page is permissible. I agree we need
an admonition to clarify this is an *alternative* to FOSS, not a
method of first resort for people who care about software freedom.
I think the page now looks great and appropriately commented.
I would, however, challenge you in your statement / implication that
people who would use a proprietary plugin like Adobe Flash on Fedora -
even as a first resort - somehow do not care about software freedom.
That's a very strong and IMO misguided statement to make ideologically
about some very active members of the Fedora community, including me.
I would submit that the vast majority of people using Fedora today DO
care about software freedom and would prefer to see something like
Adobe's plugin released under a GPL (or like) license. But they also
still need to get work done right now. And unless / until Adobe licenses
their code, or gnash and swfdec mature to the point they are reasonable
substitutes for most use cases (it could happen), the non-Free Adobe
plugin and its current licensing terms are a practical compromise.
I really hope you didn't mean what you wrote in the context in which it
appears.
I think you inferred something I didn't mean. I wrote that Adobe Flash
was "not a method of *first resort* for people who care about software
freedom." (emphasis added)
>From what you said above, I gather that Adobe Flash was not a method of
first resort for you. You tried gnash and swfdec, and found that they
were not yet at the level of capability needed to support your work.
Only then did you resort to Adobe Flash. And that's precisely the case
I thought I was making. I have no doubt about your commitment to
software freedom! :-)
I am in the exact same boat. I need Flash frequently to view
proceedings from conferences and on other sites where I track
information about Fedora. I try swfdec and gnash regularly to see how
they're working, and if I can get reasonably close to information that
would help the projects, I file bugs. And then I resort to Adobe Flash
after that.
There are probably people using Fedora who don't care as much about
software freedom, and just want a working Adobe Flash. For them, it may
be a matter of first resort, and so that admonition hopefully tells them
there are alternatives that may work for them, depending on the
Flash-based sites they frequent.
Is there a better way I could put this so it's not misunderstood?
Being first and foremost a marketing guy, no I do not believe you could
have put it any better.
There is also freedom of choice. Those that would use adobe as the a
first choice are not freedom haters.
You never used those words but your tone suggested it to me. It was a
slight and I read it as such.
Edward (TK009)
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