15:05:01 <Sparks> #startmeeting Release Notes Meeting 15:05:44 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call 15:05:47 * Sparks 15:06:11 <jjmcd> Ack - I totally forgot about this ;-) 15:06:22 * rudi is here 15:06:45 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, me too. I was trying to figure out why rudi was still up! 15:06:54 <rudi> lolz 15:07:05 * jjmcd was blogging on yesterday's meeting 15:08:12 <Sparks> #topic Last meeting 15:08:18 <Sparks> Okay from the last meeting I see... 15:08:32 <Sparks> that we agreed to use Publican for everything 15:08:53 <Sparks> that we needed three documents (right?) 15:09:21 <jjmcd> 3 formats? 15:09:28 <Sparks> three documents 15:09:34 <Sparks> 1) "normal" RNs 15:09:50 <Sparks> 2) "pretty" RNs (one-page by Marketing) 15:10:00 <Sparks> 3) things to know about upgrading 15:10:04 <jjmcd> Ahh yes, OK 15:10:25 <Sparks> The agenda from last week was: 15:10:32 <Sparks> 1. How to improve on the F12 RNs 15:10:41 <Sparks> 2. What products need to be generated. 15:10:53 <Sparks> 3. Using Publican for the RNs 15:11:00 <Sparks> 4. Training people to write beats. 15:11:23 <Sparks> Anything else we need to discuss? 15:11:44 <jjmcd> Perhaps today we should address products 15:12:00 <Sparks> okay 15:12:10 <Sparks> #topic RN Products 15:12:10 <jjmcd> We have agreement on 3 and last week we hit 1 15:12:36 <Sparks> Yes, and I've successfully gotten a Publican package into the repo now 15:12:57 <Sparks> So there are a few tweeks that need to be made but they aren't difficult 15:13:00 <jjmcd> I think there is the question of what to produce for online, how to present it, and what is actually in fedora-release-notes.rpm 15:13:17 <Sparks> Yes 15:13:22 <jjmcd> Yeah, getting the rpm actually built isn't a big deal IMO 15:13:32 <Sparks> So, IMO, we should provide the RN online in HTML, HTML-Single, and PDF 15:14:00 <rudi> +1 -- I really don't think anyone will miss ZIP and TGZ if they're not there... 15:14:17 <Sparks> jjmcd: ? 15:14:19 <jjmcd> But my question is what does that look like? The example you had wouldn't work for RN 15:14:39 <Sparks> What does what look like? 15:14:59 <jjmcd> The web page where the user selects what he wants 15:15:05 <Sparks> Ahh 15:15:22 <rudi> I think that ryanlerch has been working on that a little 15:15:27 <Sparks> Well, it will probably (hopefully) be in Zikula by then so this will be a moot point but... 15:15:50 <rudi> Trying to work out how to tidy up the index page a bit 15:15:51 <Sparks> I made a table that can be seen at docs.fedoraproject.org/security-guide. 15:16:15 <Sparks> It isn't complete but is the basis for not having a complicated jumble 15:16:21 <jjmcd> Does that really change anything? The user still needs to be faced with an incredible array of choices. 15:16:28 <jjmcd> Well, that isn't terrubly useful 15:16:30 <rudi> (ryanlerch is ECS's graphics go-to-guy) 15:16:43 <Sparks> Actually use http://docs.fedoraproject.org/selinux-user-guide/ 15:16:50 <Sparks> My table is jacked up, apparently 15:16:57 <jjmcd> the security guide only has a few languages, not 12 releases, 42 languages, live versus now 15:17:15 <Sparks> Lots of choices isn't a problem. Being able to clearly see the choices is the problem 15:17:23 <Sparks> why 12 releases? 15:17:38 <jjmcd> We keep RN's online for past releases 15:17:59 <jjmcd> 1512 products per release 15:18:12 <Sparks> Hold on... 15:18:20 <rudi> I think it's really important to have that archival material important; but does it need to be right there in the face of the user who's probably looking for the latest stuff? 15:18:29 <jjmcd> You have like a dozen for security-guide 15:18:30 <Sparks> We can group the different releases into their own tables and provide links to those at the top of the page... 15:18:37 <jjmcd> rudi: I'll buy that 15:18:42 <Sparks> but how do you get 1512 products per release? 15:19:02 <jjmcd> whoops, I added in the 12, forgot the 2 15:19:26 <jjmcd> OK, only 252 15:19:34 <Sparks> How do you get 252? 15:20:14 <jjmcd> 42 langs times 3 formats times 2 (we keep the original for live as well as most reent) 15:20:49 <Sparks> Well, if we sort by language and each language has three options then it shouldn't be complicated. 15:21:02 <Sparks> sort language alphabetically 15:21:06 <jjmcd> I'm not sure we really need that but it's what we've been doing 15:21:27 <Sparks> No, what I've seen is a jumble of language codes which is NOT user friendly 15:21:58 <jjmcd> Hmmmm, with help from L10N we could have a language selection leading to a table of releases/formats 15:21:58 <Sparks> There is a BIG difference between the release-notes and the selinux-user-guide page 15:22:13 <jjmcd> Yes, hundreds of docs verses a handful 15:22:35 <Sparks> But the way the RN languages are presented is not good 15:22:38 <Sparks> it is very confusing 15:22:55 <jjmcd> I agree, but RN's presented like SG would be much worse 15:23:11 <Sparks> You can add every language you want to under the SELinux and everything will be easy to find 15:23:54 <jjmcd> I'm not really thrilled with a 1000 line long list 15:24:06 <Sparks> But it wouldn't be 1000 lines 15:24:14 <Sparks> just 42 15:24:28 <Sparks> sorted alphabetically by language 15:24:51 <jjmcd> So you choose the release on a separate page? 15:24:54 <Sparks> We'd put each release in it's own table to break it up 15:25:10 <Sparks> nah, just stack the tables with links to the table at the top of the page or something 15:25:17 <jjmcd> Oh, no, a link to previous releases which looks like the current, that might work 15:25:19 <Sparks> but you could do separate pages 15:25:43 <rudi> Or current-2 on the main page, and everything else on another page 15:25:48 <Sparks> sure 15:26:10 <Sparks> Might be interesting to break them all up on different pages just to see the hits 15:26:28 <jjmcd> Yeah 15:27:04 <Sparks> Of course this is a near-pointless conversation if we do get Zikula stood up before then 15:27:23 <jjmcd> Why? We still have the question as to how to present it 15:27:44 <Sparks> Yeah, but we might have a completely different set of ways to present it then 15:27:55 <Sparks> drop down menus and other sexy things 15:28:40 <jjmcd> Well, I haven't played with Zikula enough, but it doesn't seem to make that much difference. Personally, I'm mostly hoping to get away from that stupid CVS ;-)) 15:29:14 <Sparks> Well, I think Zikula will automate a few things for us. 15:29:35 <Sparks> And we won't be waiting for hours while the docs.fp.o site updates 15:30:00 <jjmcd> The release notes pages is already php, we could do drop downs and other goodies if we wanted 15:30:25 <jjmcd> But it is kind of a pain to do anything when you have a bunch of character sets you can't read 15:30:35 <Sparks> We could... I'm just not that talented anymore. If someone wants to do it I say go for it. 15:30:40 <Sparks> Yes 15:31:00 <rudi> I might forward this conversation to ryan when I see him in a few hours :) 15:31:40 <Sparks> :) 15:31:54 <jjmcd> OK, I'll go play with something on my local zikula instance and see if a vison comes down from the heavens, but a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds like good possibility 15:32:27 <Sparks> Okay 15:32:50 <Sparks> rudi: good for you? 15:33:01 <rudi> All good 15:33:31 <Sparks> #agreed a single list of langs with a link to old stuff sounds good for presentation on docs.fp.o 15:33:37 <Sparks> jjmcd: What's next? 15:33:42 <jjmcd> OK, so what about f-r-n.rpm? Are we going to try to separate by lang? 15:33:45 <rudi> Before we move on.... 15:33:54 <Sparks> rudi: Go ahead 15:34:03 <rudi> I thought that we should probably talk about the "minor docs" 15:34:16 <jjmcd> Yeah 15:34:32 * Sparks has always been confused by the "minor docs" 15:34:36 <rudi> These are currently packaged with the release notes, but I really don't think that they belong there. 15:34:44 <Sparks> What are they? 15:34:48 <Sparks> And why are they there? 15:34:49 <jjmcd> These are the docs that can't drink 15:34:53 <rudi> lolz 15:34:59 <rudi> Readme 15:35:00 <Sparks> Ha! 15:35:01 <rudi> About Fedora 15:35:12 <rudi> Readme-burning-isos 15:35:13 <jjmcd> readme, readme-burning-isos, homepage, etc 15:35:15 <rudi> readme-live-images 15:35:20 <rudi> yeah 15:35:37 <Sparks> I understand the "About Fedora". Why the others? 15:35:51 <rudi> Legacy, I presume 15:35:53 <jjmcd> About-Fedora shows up in yelp, but I wonder how many people ever trip across the others 15:36:08 <jjmcd> Should they be in yelp too? 15:36:28 <Sparks> Well... if we aren't presenting them in yelp why are they there? 15:36:39 <rudi> In some ways, their scope makes them look lke ideal wiki contenders 15:36:43 <Sparks> Couldn't we integrate it into a guide better? 15:36:46 <jjmcd> Currently they are text 15:36:52 <rudi> But static docs lend themselves better to localisation 15:37:01 <rudi> and these docs have been *extensively* localised 15:37:15 <rudi> (I presume because they're short and therefore attractive projects) 15:37:40 <jjmcd> Perhaps about-fedora contains links to these docs instead of putting them in the rpm 15:37:53 <Sparks> Well, can we either make them guides onto themselves or fold them into another guide 15:37:59 <Sparks> jjmcd: +1 15:38:10 <rudi> jjmcd -- at the very most. 15:38:27 <jjmcd> homepage is a different Q tho 15:38:36 <Sparks> What is homepage? 15:38:48 <jjmcd> What you get when you open Galeon 15:39:03 <jjmcd> or maybe its epiphany 15:39:04 <rudi> A page that loads in certain browsers if you start the browser without a net connection 15:39:22 <Sparks> Ahhh 15:39:22 <jjmcd> In at least one of them, you get it even if you have a connection 15:39:29 <rudi> Heh 15:39:50 <jjmcd> I think the connection thing used to be the case for firefox but isn't anymore 15:39:51 * Sparks notes that FF starts http://start.fedoraproject.org 15:39:52 <rudi> I think it's awful; all it can do is confuse users into thinking that they're online, when they're really not 15:40:36 <Sparks> Well, I think it should be separate from the RNs 15:40:44 <rudi> Sparks +1 15:40:55 <Sparks> I don't like bundling all this stuff together 15:40:57 <jjmcd> We need to understand what browsers use it and why 15:41:01 <rudi> And if Galeon or something else needs it; it should belong to that package 15:41:14 <Sparks> We need to identify the something else 15:41:20 <jjmcd> If it's one browser I agree, but I think there are multiples 15:41:27 <rudi> Or should be packaged up as a dependency for whoever needs/wants it. 15:41:48 <rudi> (Or they should get their browsers to point to something more useful... this is 2009....) 15:41:59 <jjmcd> Exactly, rudi 15:42:09 <Sparks> yes 15:42:33 <jjmcd> But we need to identify the affected browsers and contact their developers 15:42:44 <Sparks> jjmcd: Want to handle that? 15:42:57 <jjmcd> I guess I can do that 15:43:19 <rudi> As for "About Fedora"... 15:43:26 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to determine the affected browsers and contact the developers for the homepage project 15:44:16 <rudi> (sorry -- am I getting too far ahead?) 15:44:21 <jjmcd> I've wanted an excise to see what browsers we have 15:44:52 <jjmcd> lynx uses it even if you are connected 15:46:10 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah 15:46:19 <Sparks> rudi: Go ahead with the "About Fedora' 15:47:00 <rudi> I can see the importance of that if it shows up in Yelp; but it doesn't really have anything to do with the RNs 15:47:45 <rudi> I just wonder if there's a better home for it... 15:48:10 <rudi> (With yelp itself if that's the only place people will ever see it?) 15:50:10 <rudi> (And who would miss it if it wasn't even there?) 15:51:23 <jjmcd> Well, mostly it's recruiting 15:52:09 <Sparks> I think it should be packaged separately 15:52:34 <Sparks> I think it has its place in the OS but it is separate from the RN 15:52:47 <rudi> +1 15:53:16 <jjmcd> f-r-n.rpm currently contains all the OS docs installed on the users system. Do we buy a lot by breaking it up into multiple packages? 15:53:53 <rudi> Well, it may only be two packages (three if we have to keep homepage) 15:53:54 <Sparks> Well, that's less to download when there is an update of one piece 15:54:16 <jjmcd> Yeah, but about-fedora and homepage are pretty tiny 15:54:35 <jjmcd> We will add to the space we take on the live cd by breaking them up 15:55:07 <Sparks> How much space? Is it negligable? 15:55:25 <jjmcd> Its pretty small, but then every byte on the LiveCD is precious 15:55:32 <Sparks> I agree 15:55:41 <Sparks> Who is in charge of the LiveCD project? 15:55:58 <jjmcd> Dunno? Is that Jeroen? 15:56:47 <Sparks> I don't know. But if that is our blocker we should contact those folks 15:57:17 <jjmcd> I gotta boogie here pretty soon, but I will go ahead and run a test to see what the price actually is 15:57:18 <rudi> Well, if we can at least get the Live-Images and Burning-ISOs docs out of there this time around, that's a start :/ 15:57:20 <Sparks> DavidZeuthen 15:57:52 <jjmcd> that's a new name to me. I think RelEng spends a lot of time stressing over it each release 15:57:58 <Sparks> rudi: That's true. removing those docs will reduce the overall size that we've been pushing 15:58:15 <rudi> ...and, more importantly, complexity and redundancy... 15:58:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: Jeremy Katz and Douglas McClendon too 15:58:36 <Sparks> rudi: Yes 15:59:16 <jjmcd> Maybe we add to Yelp an "Additional DOcumentation" topic that has links to install, security, etc 15:59:16 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to determine space differentials between the combined RN and the individual files in RPMs 15:59:26 <Sparks> jjmcd: +1 16:00:01 <Sparks> #idea break up all documents that are currently packaged as f-r-n.rpm into separate RPMs 16:00:27 <rudi> #idea -- don't package any that we don't know that we have to 16:00:32 <Sparks> #idea move Readme-burning-isos and readme into a guide 16:00:48 <Sparks> anything else we need to capture? 16:01:01 <rudi> I think that was it :) 16:01:05 <jjmcd> OK, I gotta go, but I have a few action items (which I needed like a hole in the head) 16:01:12 <rudi> That was my "wo minutes of minor docs hate" 16:01:12 <Sparks> :) 16:01:18 <rudi> jjmcd -- before you run 16:01:29 <jjmcd> ? 16:01:30 <rudi> Just a heads up that I branched f12 tonight 16:01:34 <jjmcd> cool 16:01:36 <rudi> (In case you didn't see) 16:01:42 <jjmcd> appreciate it 16:01:49 <rudi> And loaded in some dummy content that you can pull down and build :) 16:02:34 <jjmcd> OK, so master is sstill F11, but we will change that after the next update to get in changes and new translations 16:02:41 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'm going to do a blog on the beats here in a minute 16:02:44 <rudi> Yeah 16:02:47 <jjmcd> good deal 16:02:50 <Sparks> jjmcd: Is there a link to the beats for f12? 16:03:03 <jjmcd> wiki/Documentation_Beats 16:03:12 <Sparks> cool 16:03:19 <Sparks> anything else? 16:03:37 <rudi> Not from me :) 16:03:41 <Sparks> jjmcd: you? 16:03:45 <jjmcd> nope 16:03:48 <rudi> We seem to average one agenda item per hour :) 16:04:27 <Sparks> rudi: Yeah but we do get a lot done 16:04:28 <Sparks> :) 16:04:31 <Sparks> Okay... 16:04:34 <Sparks> #endmeeting -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
