-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 14:01 < quaid> <meeting id="Docs team"> 14:02 * stickster here 14:02 * Sparks is present 14:02 * ke4qqq here 14:02 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008 - -- calling of the role 14:02 * danielsmw will be more actine in 20-25 minutes. 14:02 * jjmcd is here 14:03 * quaid gives danielsmw some treatment options for his actine 14:03 < danielsmw> s/ine/ive 14:03 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"] 14:04 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_21_January_2008 - -- Status on release notes for F11 : lead and beats 14:05 < quaid> ke4qqq: you want to talk about doc lead? 14:06 < ke4qqq> we are looking for a lead for relnotes 14:06 < ke4qqq> decent organizational skills and preferably some experience in cat herding 14:06 < stickster> There was a nibble from someone the other day, wasn't there? 14:06 < ke4qqq> we've had a few 14:06 < ke4qqq> no one who has wanted to jump in front of the bus yet though 14:07 < jjmcd> Isn't it more like under the bus 14:07 < ke4qqq> jjmcd: that isn't until after release 14:07 < stickster> When is the cutoff for a lead, and/or do we need a contingency plan for that possibility? 14:08 < ke4qqq> FUDcon technically 14:08 < ke4qqq> we should have a contingency plan methinks 14:08 * jsmith sneaks in late 14:08 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Push comes to shove, I'll do it. 14:09 < stickster> I think the handoff is not as hard as people think 14:09 < Sparks> The beat writers from F10 have already been emailed with a request to update their Beat assignments and I've already started to see some activity on the page. 14:09 < quaid> we also need some "lieutenants", in that the work always seems to require lots of hands closer we ge 14:09 * ke4qqq shoves Sparks 14:09 < stickster> Yes, it shouldn't all fall on one person 14:09 < ke4qqq> is that enough? 14:09 < quaid> ha! 14:10 < jjmcd> stickster: The whole conversion thing is still a total mystery to a lot of us -- kinda scary 14:10 < quaid> how about this .... 14:10 < quaid> what if Sparks takes lead for _just_ F11 14:10 < quaid> and jjmcd and others who might be interested 14:10 < quaid> commit to a Lt. role 14:10 < quaid> and we rotate for F12 14:10 < stickster> It's really not a mystery, I think quaid has already made up notes on how to do each page 14:10 < quaid> ? 14:10 < Sparks> quaid: Can we make it a mandatory rotation? :) 14:10 < stickster> Sparks: That's not a bad idea 14:10 * herlo is here today 14:10 < quaid> Sparks: +10 14:10 * jsmith agrees to be a "Wiki to DocBook leftenant" 14:10 * Sparks declares jsmith next. 14:11 < jjmcd> Sparks: If you/Paul are willing to agree to a little conversion mentoring, I'll step up for 12 14:11 < Sparks> jjmcd: Works for me 14:11 < stickster> Honestly, the only thing that makes things difficult at all is the transclusion people are using on the wiki pages. I think we should do away with all transclusions because they're too confusing to deal with. 14:11 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:11 < ke4qqq> outstanding! 14:11 < stickster> If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. 14:11 < stickster> If we just have N number of flat pages, the conversion is a really simple (if slightly laborious) process. 14:11 < stickster> oops, sorry 14:12 < Sparks> The page is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats, by the way. 14:12 < Sparks> If the beat writer doesn't have a * next to their name that means they've accepted their beat for F11 14:13 < stickster> jjmcd: I'm willing to do that meeting, btw 14:13 < stickster> Have the beats now been scrubbed? 14:13 < stickster> Archived, or however we intend to put the old content away? 14:14 < Sparks> stickster: The scrubbing is in progress 14:14 < Sparks> stickster: quaid said archiving past information was not necessary in most cases. 14:14 < Sparks> I'm pretty sure all I did was reset the table and change F10 to F11 where applicable 14:15 < quaid> it is page renaming that has to happen next :) 14:15 < quaid> each beat needs to be assessed, either scrubbed clean or left with some content, depending on each case. 14:15 < stickster> IYAM we should do page renaming, strip out all the content, remove transclusions, and start fresh. 14:15 < stickster> +1 quaid, that some pages might need to retain some content. 14:15 < stickster> Good clarifications. 14:16 < stickster> But keep in mind that the page history holds on to the old content so we should not be timid about getting rid of material. 14:16 < quaid> right 14:16 < stickster> It's time for some bold moves here. 14:16 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:16 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17 < stickster> To me, the most important questions are, (1) is it clear to the community where and how they can write content into beats? and (2) is the process of producing the release notes as easy as possible for the people trying now to shoulder that work? 14:17 < Sparks> Is it possible to have a template for all the beats to work off of? 14:17 < quaid> on the first one ... 14:17 < quaid> I think we need the pages renamed and categorized first 14:17 < quaid> then we publicize like crazy 14:17 < stickster> Sparks: Probably not, because there are subdivisions that are going to be particular to each beat's subject matter... just my opinion 14:18 < quaid> as for 2 ... 14:18 < Sparks> I noticed that the Feature pages have a template with embedded notes on completing the form. That would make it real easy. 14:18 < stickster> quaid: Clarification, renamed, categorized, and flattened (removing transclusions) 14:18 < quaid> it could be easier, and we have time to work on that before we need it to be easier. 14:18 < quaid> harveybetty was working on that, for example 14:18 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:18 < stickster> Sparks: But the factors people have to document in that process are set and well-bounded, which is not true about release notes. 14:19 < Sparks> Okay 14:19 < jjmcd> It would be good, though, if we could somehow push the RNs toward being a little more even, maybe a template would help but I'm a little from Missouri on that 14:19 < stickster> Sparks: In some cases, the contributor need to provide a command for a temporary workaround. In others, they need to explain a new feature that's superseded an old one. Or indicating a deprecation... it's pretty wide-open 14:19 < Sparks> So give them a sandbox and let them go. 14:20 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:20 < stickster> Sparks: Yup, all we need to provide is "Please start your section with an == h2 == and go to town" 14:20 < quaid> yeah 14:20 < Sparks> stickster: Okay, well we can do that. 14:20 < quaid> that might be enough of a template :) 14:20 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:21 < Sparks> Okay, I'll look at that this evening and see what needs to be done. 14:21 < ke4qqq> can we offload all of the feature stuff to the owners (or their delegates) and remove that from our plate altogether? 14:21 < Sparks> We can also change the page names at the same time and get them in the proper category and such. 14:21 < quaid> ke4qqq: I fear we'll not see the content then 14:21 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22 < quaid> ke4qqq: in reality, we do already to an important degree 14:22 < quaid> ke4qqq: the feature pages have a relese notes section they need to fill out 14:22 < quaid> we just have to suck that in 14:22 < ke4qqq> surely the feature owners want their feature covered....if not - perhaps we don't cover it. 14:22 < ke4qqq> ahhhh 14:22 < ke4qqq> that's a bit easier 14:22 < jjmcd> The problem, of course, is that "features" cover maybe 10% of the changes 14:23 -!- mdomsch [n=Matt_Dom@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:23 < jjmcd> Although maybe my perception is colored by having worked on devtools 14:23 < quaid> no, it's true 14:23 < Sparks> Okay, so let's set up the pages with proper names, put all the pages in the proper category, and link those pages onto the main page and start advertising. 14:23 < quaid> features are only highlighted groupings of changes 14:24 < quaid> but we cannot expect to get all changes in a release notes set 14:24 < quaid> Sparks: +1 14:24 < jjmcd> Although for developers, even minor changes can be pretty important 14:24 -!- danielsmw [n=danielsm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:25 < Sparks> quaid: I can get those pages setup this evening. Shouldn't take long. Then we'll be ready. 14:25 * danielsmw has upgraded from an ipod to a laptop, and can now participate. 14:25 -!- DemonJes1er [n=DemonJes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25 < quaid> ok, ready to move on from release notes? 14:25 < Sparks> +1 14:25 < stickster> bam! pow! 14:25 < ke4qqq> +1 14:26 < jsmith> +0.98 (after inflation) 14:26 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:26 < herlo> +1 14:26 < jjmcd> lets go 14:26 * herlo points out that jsmith's version of inflation shows him having less money rather than the prices going up :) 14:27 < jsmith> herlo: Well, it depends on whether you're a spender or a saver :-p 14:27 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- meeting time change proposal 14:27 * jsmith mumbles "meetings are *never* convenient" 14:27 < quaid> true dat 14:27 < herlo> it seems everyone is trying to change meeting times 14:27 < quaid> but this current time was made by a bunch of people who are mainly no longer here :) 14:27 * jds2001 urges docs not to change to Friday's at 2PM :D 14:27 < quaid> heh 14:28 < Sparks> So I'm thinking Friday at... 2? 14:28 < jds2001> lol 14:28 < jjmcd> Would Friday at 4 be better? 14:28 < quaid> Sparks: one thing is, I think we cannot *fix* a new time until we have a new steering committee to fix it for 14:28 < herlo> +1 14:28 < jds2001> unless you want FESCo clash :D 14:28 < herlo> okay not really ^^ 14:28 < Sparks> quaid: True 14:28 < ke4qqq> FDSCo v. FESCo - on pay per view? 14:29 < jsmith> ke4qqq: But if we win, do we have to wear silly belts with belt-buckles the size of dinner plates? 14:29 < Sparks> Just think about moving the meeting for a future discussion. 14:29 < ke4qqq> jsmith: no just larger gold-encrusted pocket protectors 14:30 < quaid> ok, so we're not against a new meeting time, per se, right? 14:30 < Sparks> +1 14:30 < jsmith> +1 14:30 < stickster> Not against, +1 14:30 < jjmcd> +1 14:31 < stickster> We can again use that standard wiki matrix to fix a time 14:31 < Sparks> stickster: Already got something in the works although quaid might have a better solution. 14:32 < quaid> no you got the right thing 14:32 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FDSCo_meeting_matrix 14:32 < quaid> Sparks made that and we can start populating it 14:33 < stickster> awesome. 14:33 < quaid> we can choose to later weed out anyone who is not on a steering committee, although I think getting the widest group regardless is the goal 14:33 < Sparks> yes 14:33 < quaid> ok, then ... 14:33 < quaid> anything else on this 'un? 14:34 < Sparks> nope 14:34 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg -- leadership (re)fresh 14:34 < quaid> anyone not read my email to the list? 14:34 < quaid> if you have ... any reason you haven't commented on it? ;-D 14:34 < jjmcd> which email to which list? 14:34 < quaid> jjmcd: "Leadership (re)fresh" to f-docs-l 14:34 < jjmcd> ahhhhh 14:35 * Sparks commented on it 14:35 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-January/msg00109.html 14:35 * jjmcd wondered whether it was moot if there weren't candidates still 14:36 < quaid> oh, interesting viewpoint 14:36 < quaid> I think we have at least a half-dozen people who have clearly showed leadership ability/skills and could be the Chair 14:36 < quaid> and that means at least that many who could be steering 14:36 < quaid> in fact, many of you _are_ steering without the formal recognition. 14:36 -!- J5 [n=quintice@nat/redhat/x-4b4a82606c3ac184] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:36 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk 14:37 < jjmcd> Certainly if we can have a meaningful election that is the best course 14:37 < quaid> we have to be honest -- voter turnout may still suck 14:37 < ke4qqq> voter turnout in general does 14:37 < jjmcd> Perhaps we could lock up the swamp water supplier 14:38 < jsmith> Even if voter turnout is low... it's better to at least go through the motions of having an election 14:38 < jjmcd> We seem to have a lot of marketing issues - I wonder if we can identify some new outlets 14:38 < jjmcd> Roger that jsmith 14:38 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si@fedora/kital] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:39 < ke4qqq> I don't think there is really any alternative 14:39 < Sparks> jjmcd: That should be the first thing the new chair does. 14:40 < quaid> yeah, we need elections regardless of voter turnout :) 14:41 < stickster> I'm not for a steering committee, as much as I am for an accountable Docs leader. 14:41 * stickster sent overdue response to list 14:41 < ke4qqq> stickster: will you explain why? 14:41 -!- QuickStart [n=QUICKSTA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:41 < ke4qqq> or should I read that in your email? 14:42 < stickster> ke4qqq: Either way is fine! :-) 14:42 < stickster> I simply think that our core group that participates on a regular basis are the obvious choices for a steering committee. 14:42 < stickster> The number of votes is likely to be very small. 14:42 < quaid> hmm 14:42 < quaid> we could elect a leader who appoints a steering committee? 14:43 < Sparks> How many in the committee? 14:43 < stickster> I think there's no point in appointments, when the choices could just as easily be "Would you help me by being responsible for Task X?". 14:43 < ke4qqq> at the same time, what SPOF does that introduce?? 14:43 < Sparks> I don't think we need more than a handful of people. 14:43 < ke4qqq> I tend to agree with that logic 14:43 < ke4qqq> but understand there is arequirement for us to have some elected leadership 14:44 < stickster> Yes, there should be someone leading the Docs team, to be certain. I compare this to the Artwork team or the BugZappers, where there is no SCo, but plenty is getting done. 14:44 -!- nphilipp [n=nils@nat/redhat/x-940142e42e036d9a] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:44 < stickster> FESCo on the other hand is in charge of an exceptionally large slice of strategy. 14:44 < Sparks> What is the election requirement? Just a leader or what? 14:45 < stickster> Consensus is good enough in this case, as long as it's obtained through the list and not just the people who showed up here for the IRC meeting. 14:45 < stickster> Again, this is all my opinion as a Docs contributor. 14:45 < jjmcd> I wonder how many nascent leaders are out there on the list but don't join the meetings because IRC is too old-fashioned, or too-geeky or whatever 14:45 < quaid> it's fair view, though 14:45 < stickster> I'm perfectly willing to be shouted down if a lot of people disagree. 14:45 < quaid> we did steering committee back then because that was the best way 14:45 < quaid> things have evolved in the overall project, here too 14:45 < stickster> (or even a few people, for that matter) 14:45 < quaid> the main reason 14:45 < stickster> quaid: Right. 14:45 < quaid> for a steering committee formality 14:46 < quaid> is to give people "authority" to speak "for docs" 14:46 < quaid> and I think we have shown that people don't need that title to speak authoritatively 14:46 < stickster> I agree with that. The point of a meritocracy is that the authority comes from experience and accomplishment. 14:46 < quaid> otoh, the "one leader" does benefit from the title. 14:46 < stickster> Except in my case, where someone was fool enough to hire me instead. 14:46 < quaid> cf. ianweller before and after "wiki czar" title -- he sounds more authoritative, etc. 14:47 < quaid> (IMO) 14:47 * jsmith adds to what quaid just said, by saying "... and then jsmith joined the steering committee, and it went to pot" 14:47 < jjmcd> yeah, good point. To a degree, doesn't the doc lead do that 14:47 < quaid> stickster: actually, not to belabor, but I think your hiring was a perfect example of meritocracy in action 14:47 < stickster> Right, and Ian got that title through consensus and the recognition that he was putting a lot of energy into making the wiki better. 14:47 < stickster> quaid: Stop with the flattery! (your check's in the mail though) 14:48 < quaid> hmmm ... good stuff this 14:48 < quaid> so where to next? 14:48 < stickster> So again, my point is just that as long as Docs has an accountable leader, selected by consensus of people who participate in the work, I think the potential is to create less of an artificial barrier between "we who decide" and "we who do li'l tasks" 14:49 < quaid> stickster: so you are saying consensus is ok rather than hold an election? 14:49 < stickster> Yes. 14:49 * quaid is concerned about how we do that and draw the line, etc. 14:49 < jjmcd> Concensus can be kind of mushy 14:49 -!- chitlesh_ [n=chitlesh@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 14:49 < ke4qqq> stickster: is that ok with the sub-project guidelines 14:49 < ke4qqq> I though election was a must? 14:50 < stickster> ke4qqq: I'm talking specifically about *not* continuing as a subproject 14:50 < stickster> Oops, scratch that. 14:50 < stickster> That was the mistaken thought I had in the shower 14:50 < stickster> this morning... then I realized I was thinking about it the wrong way. 14:50 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si@fedora/kital] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50 < stickster> A subproject has to have clear governance. Not "this particular governance model X." 14:51 < jjmcd> Are there other distros that do docs better that we can learn from? 14:51 < stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Defining_projects#Fedora_Projects 14:51 < quaid> jjmcd: heh, yeah, RHEL, but I don't want to learn from that model :) 14:51 < stickster> jjmcd: A question asked since time immemorial... we should constantly be looking at other projects and learning something (good or bad) from them 14:52 < jjmcd> Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard 14:52 * stickster has a hard stop in a few minutes, so I'm shutting up now 14:52 * stickster waits for the market to devalue his $0.02 14:52 < quaid> ok, so the deal is ... 14:52 < quaid> we have a current suspension of the existing Docs rules 14:52 < quaid> Docs defined for itself how to fulfill the governance requirement. 14:52 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_mtg 14:53 < quaid> we are free to decide how to proceed, within the guidelines of having a clear governance for the rest of the world to see. 14:53 < quaid> what I'd like to do ... 14:53 < quaid> is decide _on_list_ how to proceed: 14:53 < quaid> * elections or no 14:53 < quaid> * steering or no 14:53 < quaid> * sig or sub-proj 14:53 < quaid> etc. 14:54 < quaid> does that make sense? 14:54 < Sparks> +1 14:54 < jjmcd> Yes, let's suck in some other voices 14:54 < Sparks> quaid: I think you already asked those questions in your email to the list. Maybe a poke to the community would help get some responses. 14:55 < jjmcd> This clear enumeration of the issues is helpful 14:55 < quaid> can someone else .. 14:55 < quaid> take a stab at explaining this via the list? 14:55 < ke4qqq> lets just say if there are no objections we are appointing Jono Bacon head of the docs project......would that get a response? that said I like the clear delination - though I think the no answers are messier than no - because then something else must be defined 14:55 < Sparks> quaid: On it 14:55 < quaid> Sparks: thx 14:57 < Sparks> ke4qqq: Who is going to say that? 14:58 < quaid> ok, time runneth short 14:58 < ke4qqq> you can - didn't you say you were on it? 14:58 < quaid> I think we have what we need on this topic, yes? 14:58 < Sparks> +1 14:58 -!- mxcarron [n=maxime@fedora/Pingoomax] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58 < ke4qqq> yes 14:58 < jjmcd> yep 14:59 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: docs mtg - cms update real quick like 14:59 < quaid> two voices so far: 14:59 < quaid> King_InuYasha has been talking with us on list and in IRC 14:59 < quaid> and danielsmw (iirc) and basil (via list) have expressed interest 14:59 < quaid> in supporting any PHP solution. 14:59 < danielsmw> yup. 15:00 < quaid> (with Drupal up on the list somewhere.) 15:00 * herlo thinks Drupal is a fine choice if someone knows it well 15:00 < quaid> herlo: just duck when jsmith and ianweller are in the room,that's all 15:00 -!- bpepple|lt [n=bpepple|@rrcs-70-60-2-247.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:00 < quaid> the eyeballs popping from forks is pretty gross. 15:01 < jsmith> herlo: I refuse to use Drupal. If we go with Drupal, I promise not to touch it. 15:01 * jjmcd doesn't much care for drupal but is all for it if someone is excited about it 15:01 < danielsmw> i've expressed interest in drupal before 15:01 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes@fedora/DemonJester] has quit ["leaving"] 15:01 < quaid> ok, that's the status :) 15:01 < jsmith> herlo: Can I be more clear? I'd rather lick a toilet seat than use Drupal for the CMS 15:01 < danielsmw> but never really for a good reason 15:01 < danielsmw> so i'm wondering 15:01 < danielsmw> while we have some people here 15:02 < herlo> jsmith: start licking 15:02 < danielsmw> what reasons should we avoid drupal, so that we can add these to a list of characteristics we _should_ look for? 15:02 < quaid> ok 15:02 < danielsmw> s/should/shouldn't/ 15:02 < quaid> since we are over our hour ... 15:02 < quaid> can we take the CMS discussion 15:02 < quaid> to #fedora-docs 15:02 < danielsmw> +1 15:02 < quaid> with the note for the record that .. 15:02 < quaid> "more discussion on list" 15:02 < jjmcd> R 15:02 < quaid> ok then 15:02 < quaid> R? 15:02 < herlo> I've stated my preference for WordPress and argue that it's a good CMS, but Drupal can work. I will take this offline, and jsmith, I love you man! 15:02 < jjmcd> Roger 15:02 < quaid> cool 15:03 < jsmith> danielsmw: Security record, security record, and it's a resource hog 15:03 < jsmith> danielsmw: Also, it doesn't play nicely with PostgreSQL 15:03 < jjmcd> Pefformance is my main beef 15:03 < quaid> ok, discussion continues on #fedora-docs s'il vous plait 15:03 < herlo> moving along? 15:03 < jjmcd> Oui 15:03 < quaid> closing I think yes 15:03 < quaid> 5 15:03 < quaid> 4 15:03 < quaid> 3 15:03 < quaid> 2 15:03 < quaid> 1 15:03 < quaid> </meeting> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkl3l8UACgkQfQTSQL0MFMHucwCfS4c8UePpfigp7hc3rNxWP+vs LgIAn3C3r0lYMuxrNPbm3DfGhA7zSSZR =6qEF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
