-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I agree, in part, with your overview. A completely secure system is one that is unplugged and that isn't exactly useful. I would dare say that you don't want the same level of security as I do or as anyone else might which is why it is important to give as much information as possible and let people pick and choose what they feel is important to their specific needs. Case in point, admin A has a server in a cave that is physically highly protected. Disk encryption and securing single user mode might not be as important as securing the network connection. So that admin might only care about the VPN, SSH, IPTables, and related chapters and not so much on the LUKS Disk Encryption. I feel that it is important to give admins and users as much information as possible so they can make an educated decision on mitigating their systems down to an acceptable level of risk. Users should know that their systems are NOT secure as soon as they install Fedora or any other operating system. If we are missing something you think should be addressed please feel free to develop a chapter. Thanks, Eric Christensen E-Mail: sparks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx GPG Key: BD0C14C1 Magnus Glantz wrote: > This e-mail is about security and user friendliness, and how I think this guide perhaps may be modified into something better. > This may also be me misunderstanding the purpose of this guide. Be aware. > > I agree that Government Security Agencies and Banks has more to loose than a lot of other people :-) > > Last night I couldn't get to sleep, due to my big mouth, so I thought a bit more about the security guide. > I guess this guide aims to the users of Fedora. This may be a huuge misconception on my part, but, I though > regular home users are the main users of Fedora. So.. this guide should perhaps to be focused on that kind of usage and > that kind of knowledge levels. > > My experience, working with security in highly secure government/telco environments is that security > and ease of use/user friendliness is two most important main counter parts. > > On one hand, it's "pretty easy" to make something extremely secure, but extremely secure systems is a total drag to be in > - because they are difficult to access, use and communicate to and from, due to all restrictions and security related administration. > I believe the standard Fedora user never would want such a system. In a system like that security has compromised to much user friendliness for it to be fun. > If security isn't your definition of happy-happy joy-joy :-) > > I had a thought that perhaps this guide should mainly not focus on different things that makes a system secure as a bank. > Instead perhaps it should focus on covering techniques that allows ones home computer to operate in a secure > _and_ user friendly manner. > > Here's what I wrote on my phone last night, trying to kill demons of guilt and shame spawned out of my nonconstructive mail yesterday. > I tried to sort them in order of positive impact on security weighed against user friendliness. > > 1) Keep your system up-to-date. > 1.1) Perhaps advocacy that users should prefer "Yum installed software", as it automatically will get updated via Yum. > 2) Keep backups of your data. > 2.1) Some easy ways of backing up data. Burn on CD/DVD, put on external storage, backup hard drive, etc. S/W recommendations. > 3) Running a firewall. > 3.1) Using the shipped Fedora firewall setup tools, enabling the firewall at install. > 4) Use SE-Linux > 5) Use common sense > 5.1 Do not accept unknown stuff/software from unknown people. If a stranger walked up to you in real life and offered you an unidentifiable object.. and you at the same time > constantly heard and read stories of people accepting unidentifiable objects from strangers - finding out the object was a bomb / robotic miniature robber - YOU WOULD RUN AWAY! > 5) Do not run server software that you do not use (as web, mail, ftp, nfs or even a ssh server (if it's a desktop)) > 6) Advanced topics - Here one may cover more "user unfriendly" stuff for the paranoid government spy user types :-) > 6.1 Encryption of different kinds (files, file systems, e-mail, etc) > 6.2 Advanced hardening techniques and tools. > 6.3 Advanced auditing techniques and tools > 6.4 Security policy and/or paranoid thinking > > Some more links. > > Organizations: > http://www.cert.org/archive/pdf/aia-handbook.pdf > http://www.first.org/resources/guides/ > http://www.sans.org/reading_room/ > > //M > > mån 2009-01-05 klockan 12:00 -0500 >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:23:45 -0500 >> From: Eric Christensen <eric@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide >> To: For participants of the Documentation Project >> <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> >> Message-ID: <49617D41.5040205@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> > Good resources. Thanks for sending them. My reasoning for building > that part of the Security Guide based on US Government documents and not > documents from Universities or commercial sources has a simple > explanation. Government computers HAVE to be secure. I've seen way too > many universities and businesses run a half-way security mindset. They > are too interested in the bottom line than a secure system even though a > secure system will help the bottom line in the long run. > > The only other industry that I would like to pull from is the banking > industry. They are generally notorious for their secure systems (I'm > talking about the larger banks). They could stand to loose billions of > dollars if they are "broken into". Of course most of the banks make > their documentation secret as to not tip off anyone with a possible > documented flaw. > > I agree that we should be looking at multiple sources and that will come > in time. Please feel free to add information into the guide. I'll be > happy to read any patches that you, or anyone else, has to offer to the > guide. If you have any specific interests, please let me know! > > Thanks, > Eric Christensen > E-Mail: sparks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > GPG Key: BD0C14C1 > > > > Magnus Glantz wrote: >>>> I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude, it wasn't my intent. >>>> Also, I'm sorry for not being constructive, I'll try not and e-mail during rush our in the future :-) >>>> >>>> About a more wide spread flora of security references. My thought was that the more known universities around the world >>>> must have written kilometers of papers on Linux Security. Finding freely available papers describing general security on >>>> Linux was easier said than done. I found some references during a quick scan this evening. >>>> >>>> I guess it's a matter of trust. Of course the US Government and the NSA has excellent and trustworthy security people, >>>> and that information in this subject is collaborative.. but at least I feel more secure seeing that it's not only >>>> the US Government and secret service that approves and advocates the security issues brought out in this security guide. >>>> >>>> Universities: >>>> http://www.princeton.edu/~essweb/linux/linuxsecurity.html >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/secure-computing/ >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/sysadmin/server-guidelines.html >>>> http://www.yale.edu/its/security/network/unix.html >>>> http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/security/unix-box.html >>>> >>>> Other: >>>> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-HOWTO/ >>>> http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Security-Quickstart-HOWTO/ >>>> http://en.tldp.org/HOWTO/Secure-Programs-HOWTO/open-source-security.html >>>> http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules >>>> >>>> Vendors: >>>> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/en-US/Security_Guide/ >>>> >>>> I'll try and find some more / better references as soon as I have some more free time. >>>> >>>> //M >>>> >>>> >>>> sn 2009-01-04 klockan 12:00 -0500 skrev Message: 8 >>>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 09:44:55 -0500 >>>> From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> Subject: Re: PATCH[1/1] Linux Security Guide >>>> To: fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx >>>> Message-ID: <20090104144455.GB18821@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 04, 2009 at 09:07:16PM +1000, Murray McAllister wrote: >>>>> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Magnus Glantz <mg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>> My 5 as an non US citizen. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not feel comfortable with a guide that seems almost completely >>>>>> ripped off published US military/government documents. >>>>> I only looked at the English. I was not aware of the origins of the >>>> content. >>>>> I will be more careful in future. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! :-) >>>> "Ripped off" seems unnecessarily harsh to me, and incorrectly implies >>>> that somehow the content was lifted without permission, when in fact >>>> the references in question are freely available to everyone (USA >>>> domestic or foreign). The principles embodied in most of those >>>> references are fairly universal and you'll find them echoed in most >>>> high-level infosec materials. In fact, some foreign governments use >>>> these references themselves. >>>> >>>> The Security Guide continues to be a collaborative, participatory >>>> project, so anyone who is unhappy with the content -- or completely >>>> satisfied, too, for that matter -- is free to get involved! :-) You >>>> could start by providing equivalent or comparable non-US references, >>>> for example. >>>> >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 3 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:12:20 +0530 From: Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <49618FAC.30400@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> Hi, >> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD while curl is. Just a thought. >> Rahul >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 4 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:01:54 +0200 From: Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <1231131714.3714.7.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain >> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to >>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD >>> while curl is. Just a thought. >>> >>> Rahul >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10 LiveCD, so I can relate. However, I've no experience with curl, and I must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating. Is it as straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation of Fedora)? >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Basil Mohamed Gohar abu_hurayrah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.basilgohar.com >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 5 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 23:04:11 -0600 From: Ian Weller <ianweller@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <20090105050411.GA3404@xxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:01:54AM +0200, Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: >>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to >>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD >>>> while curl is. Just a thought. >>>> >>>> Rahul >>>> >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10 >>> LiveCD, so I can relate. However, I've no experience with curl, and I >>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating. Is it as >>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new >>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation >>> of Fedora)? >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default? >> - -- Ian Weller <ianweller@xxxxxxxxx> http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams - -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090104/db4785c8/attachment.bin >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 6 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:07:10 -0500 From: Matthew Daniels <danielsmw@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <E5D39042-AD6E-4915-A4B1-5B6EEF320481@xxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >>>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10 >>>> LiveCD, so I can relate. However, I've no experience with curl, >>>> and I >>>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating. Is it as >>>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be >>>> new >>>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new >>>> installation >>>> of Fedora)? >>>> >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default? I would think so. Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll do that for F11? I mean... what's the size of wget? I can't be more than a few hundred KB. >> - - Matthew >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 7 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 07:28:57 +0200 From: Basil Mohamed Gohar <abu_hurayrah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <1231133338.3714.10.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain >> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 23:04 -0600, Ian Weller wrote: >>> Then shouldn't wget be installed by default? I was fearful of making the same suggestion myself, since this is the Docs list, but that's what I think is best as well. Frankly, I'm quite surprised it was never included in the first place. I actually thought it was part of the core utilities needed to admin a system. >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Basil Mohamed Gohar abu_hurayrah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.basilgohar.com >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 8 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:35:33 +1000 From: Christopher Curran <ccurran@xxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <49619C25.9020804@xxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to >>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD >>> while curl is. Just a thought. >>> >>> Rahul >>> Sure I can update future docs if you can point me at the thread where they decided to drop it. >> Chris >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 9 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:21:13 -0600 From: Ian Weller <ianweller@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <20090105062113.GB5608@xxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 12:07:10AM -0500, Matthew Daniels wrote: >>> I would think so. Can we call that a bug/enhancement and see if they'll >>> do that for F11? I mean... what's the size of wget? I can't be more >>> than a few hundred KB. >>> It's 1.5 MB, according to rpm -qi wget, but the .rpm file itself is 600kB. IIRC, the former would be on the Live distribution, while the latter is on the mirrors and the install media. >> - -- Ian Weller <ianweller@xxxxxxxxx> http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams - -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090105/cb59213d/attachment.bin >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 10 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:55:15 +0530 From: Rahul Sundaram <sundaram@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: curl instead of wget To: For participants of the Documentation Project <fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx> Message-ID: <4961A7CB.6080704@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> Basil Mohamed Gohar wrote: >>> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 10:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> In documentation, wherever we are using wget, it is probably better to >>>> use curl instead since wget is not installed by default on the Live CD >>>> while curl is. Just a thought. >>>> >>>> Rahul >>>> >>> I ran into this problem (missing wget) after installing from the F10 >>> LiveCD, so I can relate. However, I've no experience with curl, and I >>> must say, curl --help is somewhat intimidating. Is it as >>> straightforward to use as wget, especially for someone that may be new >>> (e.g., the majority of those using documentation on a new installation >>> of Fedora)? The basic usage is simple. >> curl <url> >> If you want to suggest wget be (re-)added, that is a fedora-desktop list discussion. >> Rahul >> >> >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 11 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:21:57 -0800 From: Karsten Wade <kwade@xxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting To: fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <20090105152157.GI5819@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week. >> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon; discussions here in advance. >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008 >> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of. >> - - Karsten - -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 - -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/attachments/20090105/18f56d87/attachment.bin >> - ------------------------------ >> Message: 12 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:37:03 -0500 From: "Paul W. Frields" <stickster@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Wed. 07 Jan planning meeting To: fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx Message-ID: <20090105153703.GQ25582@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:21:57AM -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: >>> We have a chance to get some important work moved forward, and >>> important information spread, at the upcoming FUDCon this week. >>> >>> Let's use the meeting this Wednesday to finalize plans for FUDCon; >>> discussions here in advance. >>> >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Wednesday.2C_07_January_2008 >>> >>> Please add to that any FUDCon planning activities you think of. Not trying to be confusing -- on the contrary, making sure I can keep my schedule clear, be there, and pay attention purely to our meeting. We're meeting at 1900 UTC / 2:00pm EST / 11:00am PST? >> - -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug - -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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