Forgot to attach the log to the previous message. :) -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41
11:20 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Documentation 11:20 < quaid> <meeting> 11:20 < quaid> today I've got irc log and summary again 11:20 < quaid> ACTION: talk with FAMSCo, FESCo about time changes in room 11:20 < quaid> \-> quaid 11:20 < quaid> ACTION stickster to decree something project wide, s'il vous plait 11:21 < quaid> ok, then, welcome, and ... 11:21 < stickster> Yeah, done. 11:21 < bpepple> quaid: did you guys not move for DST? 11:21 < quaid> bpepple: we did, but FAMSCo didn't 11:21 < bpepple> ah. 11:21 < quaid> bpepple: we probably need to have everyone move with DST globally 11:21 < quaid> at the same time regardless of region 11:21 < quaid> "Fedora time" 11:21 < dwmw2_yoyo> 'dst globally' is a bit of a fucked up concept :) 11:22 * quaid does his MC Hammer imitation 11:22 < bpepple> quaid: yeah, seems reasonable. 11:22 < dwmw2_yoyo> you want them to move when Europe does, when the US does? when Argentina does? 11:22 < jjmcd> Pick a county in Indiana 11:22 < ke4qqq> dwmw2_yoyo: when Fedora does ...lol 11:22 < bpepple> dwmw2_yoyo: probably europe. that's what we tried to do with FESCo. 11:22 < quaid> dwmw2_yoyo: I haven't researched so I'm doing what's called 'ideation' where we make up shit to see what is a good idea 11:22 -!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has left #fedora-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] 11:22 < quaid> so i don't know how far off all those countries are 11:23 < quaid> hence, a decree and such 11:23 * quaid moves on to the Docs agenda now 11:23 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 11:23 * ke4qqq thinks it is even more confusing - UTC is relatively simple and desont' change 11:23 < quaid> yet the reasons 11:23 < quaid> people pick meeting times 11:23 < jjmcd> ke4qqq: exactly 11:23 < quaid> are based on local time events 11:23 < dwmw2_yoyo> ke4qqq: well, there's a second at the end of this month... 11:23 < quaid> that move with DST 11:24 < quaid> ke4qqq: so less confusing, but fewer convience for all 11:24 < stickster> Right, humans move in local time. 11:24 < jjmcd> quaid: THere's good and bad to that. If you move not only is it more confusing, but if you have a conflict you always have a conflict. Keep UTC and you have a conflict half the time 11:24 < dwmw2_yoyo> whereas moving stuff around is much more confusing, and slightly more convenient for some while being _doubly_ inconvenient for others. 11:24 -!- j-rod [n=j-rod@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has left #fedora-meeting ["I give up!"] 11:25 < quaid> shall we take the discussion to fedora-devel-list about this topci? 11:25 * stickster getting ready to do the FAB thing 11:25 < dwmw2_yoyo> yeah. Meanwhile, can we rewind this channel an hour or so, so that I can attend the FESCo meeting? 11:25 < ke4qqq> regardless of what the decision is it needs to be something project wide 11:25 < quaid> stickster: ah, that's the place, thanks 11:26 < stickster> look for this thread on fedora-advisory-board, yup. 11:26 < quaid> ok, shall we move on? 11:26 < stickster> +1 11:26 < laubersm> +1 11:26 * quaid saw 5 min vaporize off topic while we are short of time today so ... 11:26 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: Lessons learned from Fedora 10 cycle 11:27 < quaid> I'm looking for knurd's blog post ... so he doesn't have to say the same stuff here :) 11:27 < quaid> http://thorstenl.blogspot.com/2008/12/read-same-paragraphs-every-half-year.html 11:28 < quaid> so there are some points there and some I contend 11:28 -!- fozzmoo [n=fozz@xxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:29 < knurd> quaid, I just watched myself on the second read and wrote things down ;-) 11:29 < fozzmoo> Here I am. The not-quite-ever-contributing contributor. Hoping to make more of a difference this time around. 11:29 < stickster> I think the "condensed version" has some merit 11:29 < knurd> turned out to be a rant; sorry, that wasn#t the initial plan 11:29 < quaid> understood 11:29 < stickster> But like all other ideas, they need hands to make them happen 11:29 * ke4qqq likes the single page idea as well. 11:29 < quaid> oh, to be honest, I ignored the Big Idea part 11:30 < stickster> That should be easy to do 11:30 < quaid> in that, without hands, it's an idea 11:30 < quaid> while others are doable 11:30 < jjmcd> There is an issue with the level. Bits are boring to the experienced user, others are impenetrable to all but the expert 11:30 < quaid> yeah, full page, downloadable tarballs of html, etc. 11:30 < quaid> jjmcd: one attempt this time was to order that somewhat 11:30 < quaid> so there was general interest up front 11:30 < quaid> and it worked back to depth and detail and technical level 11:30 < stickster> We should turn these ideas into a SOP such as the one used by Infra for release 11:31 < stickster> And stick to that script for the release 11:31 < quaid> which ideas? 11:31 -!- tkjacobsen [n=tkjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31 < stickster> single-page HTML, any condensed version people show up to do, etc. 11:31 < stickster> That way they don't get lost in the shuffle 11:31 < stickster> We can debate them first, winners can go to the SOP. 11:32 < quaid> right 11:33 * quaid edits http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_release_standard_operating_procedures 11:33 < quaid> yeah, that is a lesson learned bit for me 11:33 < quaid> too much process stuck in the heads of too few. 11:33 < quaid> not by intention, of course :) 11:33 < stickster> quaid: We can collaborate on that page after this meeting if you've time 11:33 * quaid thinks . o O {This ain't the kind of job security I need} 11:34 < quaid> sure 11:35 * stickster gets the feeling quaid is writing :-) 11:35 < quaid> yeah, but also ... leaving room 11:35 < jjmcd> I could have taken some load off Karsten and Paul near the end if I understood the process better and I'm sure others could too 11:36 < stickster> Right, we are artificially limiting our scalability 11:36 < quaid> exactly 11:36 < stickster> It's a priority for me and Karsten to knock that barrier down. 11:36 < quaid> training during quiet times 11:36 < quaid> word! 11:36 < quaid> or, you know, die scaling it 11:37 -!- J5 [n=quintice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:37 < ke4qqq> are we going to be imparting any of that at fudcon?? 11:37 -!- llaumgui_ [n=llaumgui@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37 < ke4qqq> or is that too short a timeframe 11:37 < quaid> yes, no 11:38 < quaid> Update helping-hand docs quaid, stickster 03 Dec 17 Dec Review, organize, rewrite, simplify, and categorize Docs team helper docs 11:38 * quaid pulling from https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors#Task_table 11:40 < stickster> Hm, we'll need to update these dates 11:41 -!- hno [n=hno@pdpc/supporter/active/hno] has left #fedora-meeting [] 11:41 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk 11:41 < stickster> *chirp chirp 11:42 < stickster> I can try to cut some time on a weeknight or three next week to help with this 11:42 < stickster> I'm finally coming down off the peak media activity for F10 11:43 * jjmcd thinks stickster likes being a celebrity 11:44 < stickster> It pays better than being a rock star so far 11:44 < jjmcd> ;-) 11:44 < stickster> But I was never that big a rock star :-D 11:45 < stickster> Did quaid leave us? 11:45 -!- jtibu [n=jtibu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:45 < quaid> srry 11:45 < quaid> wrong channel? 11:46 < stickster> We can use classroom sessions for Docs work, if appropriate 11:46 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/IRC/Classroom 11:47 < quaid> stickster started it by asking about stuff in the other channel 11:47 -!- rdieter is now known as rdieter_away 11:47 < quaid> :) 11:47 < stickster> I thought I was being a good boy by not going OT here! :-D 11:47 < quaid> no, I thought that was on topic 11:47 < stickster> Anyhoo... 11:48 < quaid> it's a task in the process of us updating those docs, or smtgh 11:48 < stickster> OK, just for sake of meeting thoroughness -- I talked about doing some virtual hackfesting over Christmas. 11:48 < quaid> ok, what else did we learn this release 11:48 < stickster> more on my topic later in #fedora-docs. 11:48 < quaid> yeah, I'll add a task 11:49 < stickster> We still need a more rigorous schedule for release notes updates via web and RPM 11:49 < quaid> updates after the release, right? 11:49 < stickster> right 11:49 < stickster> We don't need to make them for six months, but we should have one or two updates in the first 30-60 days. 11:50 < stickster> Since anaconda no longer barfs when you install updates interleaved with the original release, people will see these on their systems more immediately./ 11:50 < quaid> ok 11:51 < quaid> let's see ... anything else come to mind today? 11:51 < quaid> I think I'll have more details pour out of me writing an SOP for each document 11:52 < quaid> s/pour/bleed/ 11:52 < jjmcd> I've mentioned the difficulty for new beat writers to see what they need to do, but I don't think that is news 11:52 * stickster wants to seriously think about sweeping all our old DocsProject stuff into Archive somewhere, and making that the impetus to build leaner, meaner, better pages for new contributors. 11:53 < quaid> stickster: I think the page renaming accomplishes that somewhat 11:53 -!- J5 [n=quintice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:53 * jjmcd is still from Missouri on page renaming 11:53 < quaid> just that we could use that as a place to send 80% to Archive 11:53 < quaid> s/place/method/ 11:54 < stickster> quaid: I'm missing what you're saying. 11:54 < stickster> Probably the decongestants. 11:54 < quaid> stickster: seems like more work to discard and start over, but I could be wrong 11:54 < quaid> stickster: but I see lots of cruft in doing the page renaming 11:54 < quaid> that I've been pointing to Archive: 11:54 < stickster> A LOT of cruft. 11:55 < quaid> yes, under Docs/ as well (sep. topic) 11:55 < stickster> Many of those pages predate our new wiki, the new FAS, etc.... 11:55 < quaid> yeah, so, I guess, step one in discarding is to finish the page renaming document 11:55 < ke4qqq> it almost would be a good idea to have a page owner 11:55 < quaid> and be the guinea pig first run of the process from the wiki team 11:55 < ke4qqq> who is responsible for keeping a page up to date 11:56 < quaid> ooh [Category:Quaid stewards this page]] 11:56 < quaid> easy way to steward and not lose track 11:56 < quaid> ke4qqq: sure then 11:56 < quaid> we can add that in the renaming; there is a column for new categories 11:57 < ke4qqq> and maybe a Category:unowned please adopt me soon 11:57 < quaid> jjmcd: which way is renaming losing you? 11:57 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:57 * Sparks likes the "unowned" cat 11:57 < jjmcd> I'm not convinved that trying to make search work is worth loosing navigtation that does work 11:58 < jjmcd> But I'm waiting to see 11:58 < stickster> We have a {{needs love}} already 11:58 < stickster> Which is not the same as owned, but works fine for unowned IMHO 11:58 < quaid> jjmcd: the wikibot should fix links 11:58 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Client Quit] 11:58 < quaid> jjmcd: and setup page forwards 11:58 < stickster> Yes, it does. 11:59 < jjmcd> You can sort of find stuff in a hierarchy, tho. With search you gotta know what to look for 12:00 < quaid> jjmcd: only if you know the hierarchy 12:00 < quaid> and only really if the hierarchy is totally standard 12:00 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:00 < jjmcd> Certainly it is far from perfect 12:00 < quaid> so e.g. ProjectName/Join worked pretty well, but falls apart after that 12:01 < quaid> also, categorization is *key* 12:01 -!- danielsmw_ [n=danielsm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Client Quit] 12:01 < quaid> each page must be in a category, and we find stuff by cat 12:01 < jjmcd> If we're liberal with categories that could help 12:01 < jjmcd> Only one bug reported against relnotes? I better get posting. 12:02 < quaid> jjmcd: another reason, look what happens in a category when the pages are named hierarchically 12:02 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation 12:02 < stickster> Yup, hierarchy is ugly, because it encourages cliques 12:02 < stickster> "You must know our standard!" 12:02 < quaid> you have to visually drop /Docs/DocumentName for each page 12:02 < quaid> jjmcd: yeah, post bugs; we want to do an update soon 12:03 < quaid> ok, we are over the line 12:03 < quaid> timewise 12:03 < stickster> heh, almost jinx 12:03 * fugolini want to adivice FAmSCo members that FAmSCo meeting is moved in #fedora-ambassadors 12:03 < jjmcd> Yeah, my Palm keeps telling to get moving 12:03 < quaid> fugolini: we were going to move over ... 12:04 < fugolini> ah, ok, absoultely no problems, take your time 12:04 < fugolini> it's not sure we will have a meeting, since i will not do the roll call 12:04 < fugolini> call roll, I don't know which is the right form 12:04 < quaid> well, I think we hit the long tail of the discussion 12:04 < quaid> you call the roll to get the roll call 12:05 -!- acaleechurn [i=acaleech@xxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:05 < quaid> </meeting>
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