Wiki-based log here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20081126 Plain text log attached to this email. -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41
12:01 < quaid> <meeting> 12:02 * ke4qqq is here 12:03 < quaid> ok, regadless of who can be here in real time 12:03 < quaid> let's address what is lingering and get a schedule reset 12:03 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting 12:04 < quaid> ok, I'll be editing the task table as we go 12:04 < quaid> first thing is meeting time ... 12:04 < quaid> so what happened for those not paying attention, time rolled back after daylight savings in some parts of the world 12:05 < quaid> and now 1900 UTC is an earlier time on local clocks, but we all keep trying to be here at the same time on our local clocks 12:05 -!- greg_72 [n=gergoe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 12:05 < quaid> we've always followed UTC and ate the problems in consideratio of being a global project 12:06 < quaid> so ... I reckon we just need to rediscipline ourselves to the 'new' time, and need to send out reminders a day in advance 12:07 * quaid holds the mic open for a moment while he does wiki stuff in the bg 12:11 < quaid> sorry, network dropped for a moment 12:11 < greg_72> as I understand this is a meeting for the docs project right now. In spite of this, may I have a question? 12:11 < quaid> greg_72: since we are a bit unorthodox with our meeting today by holding it in this channel, that seems fair -- go ahead 12:13 < greg_72> any experts on writing a docbook xml for a man page? my question is: in the file section, which docbook tag should I use for a file name and its description? 12:13 < quaid> greg_72: I don't know off-hand, but you can see if anyone lurking sees the question. 12:14 < quaid> all: what I'd like to do is schedule *next* meeting to cover: 12:14 < quaid> * Lessons learned from F10 12:14 < quaid> * Plans for F11 12:14 < quaid> hopefully we'll have more people for input 12:14 < quaid> as for today, I'm going to use the time productively to create our next few months plans 12:15 < quaid> around CMS, git migration, and such 12:17 < quaid> greg_72: if the man page stylesheets are using standard DocBook, it would probably be <filename>, not sure about description; have you been digging through the long list of tags on docbook.org? 12:17 * quaid Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors&action=edit 12:19 -!- kennepede [n=pkennedy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:20 < greg_72> quaid: I'm at http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/documentation/reference/html/refsect1.html do not see "filename". I am a newbie in docbook, take a look around 12:22 < quaid> greg_72: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/ 12:22 < quaid> scroll down to the ". DocBook Element Reference" 12:22 < quaid> each of those elements then has a page that shows what it can be a child of, what a parent of, and usage examples 12:22 < ke4qqq> so did the publican v. toolchain choice get made? 12:23 < greg_72> quaid: thanks 12:23 < ke4qqq> obviously (I think) we still did toolchain for F10, right? 12:23 < quaid> ke4qqq: strategically, yes, i think so 12:23 < quaid> but tactically, we had to pull back again for F10 12:23 < quaid> otoh, we now have more expertise, experience, and a better quality of Publican in F10 12:23 < ke4qqq> is there a publican session at fudcon yet? 12:23 < quaid> but migrating to publican across the board and testing *all* needs is a good task. 12:23 < quaid> ooh, don't think so 12:24 < quaid> ke4qqq: can I put you on the spot for a moment? 12:25 < quaid> as a newer to Docs contributor 12:25 < ke4qqq> please 12:25 < quaid> ok, so one of the big reasons for going with Publican is that it is an upstream project, wider user base over time, so we can contribute to it but not have to own the entire toolchain. 12:25 < ke4qqq> k 12:25 < quaid> however, we give up control and NIH stuff we know and such. 12:26 < quaid> i.e., swap time tweaking out toolchain in favor of time tweaking on a cantankerous upstream. :) 12:26 < quaid> so ... 12:26 < quaid> in what you have witnessed the last few months 12:26 < quaid> i.e., struggles with fedora-doc-utils and struggles with publican 12:26 < quaid> on channel and on mailing list 12:27 < quaid> which direction would you recommend? gut instinct, thought, etc. 12:27 < ke4qqq> gut instinct says publican 12:27 < ke4qqq> because docs are published - still a number of unanswered questions in my mind about it 12:27 * stickster returns from phone 12:27 < ke4qqq> but doc-utils seems to require instruction in black magic 12:27 < ke4qqq> and incantations that are really long at times 12:28 < ke4qqq> so it appears as more of a blackbox.... 12:28 < ke4qqq> to me at least - granted the source is there, but I didn't have time to 12:28 < ke4qqq> go look under the hood over the past few months 12:28 < ke4qqq> and I suspect that parts of the toolchain that I didn't touch are even worse 12:29 * stickster agrees with ke4qqq that publican is the right way to go, even if it does a number of silly hacky things. 12:29 < stickster> Those will likely be worked out over time 12:29 < stickster> especially if we put ours aside and devote any modicum of that time to helping with publican 12:30 < stickster> And there's nothing saying we couldn't have a second toolchain project 12:30 < ke4qqq> biab 12:30 < stickster> But it would be truly secondary, imho. 12:32 * ke4qqq is back 12:32 < quaid> yay 12:32 < quaid> I think we all concur then 12:33 < quaid> stickster: yes, fedora-doc-utils can have a basic toolchain using whatever is on the system, but it is still useful for other reasons 12:33 < stickster> certainly 12:33 * quaid adds 'Publican migration' to tasks 12:33 < stickster> we just won't concentrate on it for people who want to work on docs in FDP 12:35 < quaid> ok 12:35 < quaid> that's one of our "before FUDCon tasks" I think 12:36 < quaid> then there is the s 12:36 * quaid back 12:36 < quaid> bittorrent ongoing seems to make ssh drop randomly 12:37 * quaid bets it's the Vonage QoS up LAN from him 12:37 < quaid> stickster: help me list out what we said we'd work on postF10 12:37 < quaid> (other than a lessons learned and F11 planning, for next week) 12:37 < quaid> * CMS 12:37 < ke4qqq> stickster: will there be a person at fudcon to teach us publican? 12:38 < quaid> * quaid tells FDP about plans for growing the project 12:38 < quaid> ke4qqq: jsmith, stickster, or I can probably do it 12:38 < quaid> jsmith seems to have the most recent experience 12:38 < stickster> I'm twisting jsmith-away's arm to be there :-) 12:39 < stickster> quaid: * make damn sure important docs have a team behind them, or announce their droppage to the whole project 12:39 < stickster> or (c) move them to wiki for prosperity 12:39 < stickster> (blecch) 12:40 < quaid> ok, what is a reasonable timeline for that? 12:40 < stickster> by Dec. 15th, I'd say 12:40 < stickster> No April surprises that way. 12:41 * quaid pondering on that 12:41 < quaid> maybe a soft drop for 15 Dec, and hard drop after FUDCon, a/k/a "Last Chanceville" 12:41 < quaid> ? 12:42 < ke4qqq> define 'important docs'? 12:42 < quaid> um ... all of them? 12:42 < ke4qqq> lol ok 12:43 < quaid> well, we don't really have an extraneous ones 12:43 < ke4qqq> is there a listing of docs we maintain, a canonical list? 12:43 < quaid> ah, probably not exactly 12:44 < stickster> The front page of the DocsProject had one I believe. 12:44 * quaid looking there now 12:44 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject#The_Documents 12:44 < stickster> ke4qqq: Really, it's the sum of what you see at cvs.fedoraproject.org under "docs" cvsroot, and the release notes and IG. 12:44 < quaid> but that's not entirely clear that way 12:44 < stickster> and the selinux-guide assuming we're helping murray with that 12:45 -!- daMaestro [n=jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45 < quaid> stickster: here's a question ... does any document with the Fedora logo on it belong in FDP? 12:45 -!- daMaestro [n=jon@fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-docs 12:45 < stickster> Yes. 12:46 < stickster> If it has the Fedora logo the FDP -- assuming one exists -- should be accountable for its accuracy and timeliness. 12:46 < quaid> I concur. 12:46 < stickster> If the FDP ceases to exist, then so should that guideline, and it means that whoever wants to publish under the Fedora logo is going to need to have some sort of charter to doso. 12:46 < stickster> s/doso/do so/ 12:46 < quaid> so that makes the Fedora SELinux User Guide within our purview 12:47 < quaid> there is also all the 'Linux Deployment Guide' content now out there we can draw from 12:47 < stickster> I think we should be incented to work on it because (1) it's current, (2) it's been gifted by someone who cared enough to put the time into it, and (3) that person (mdious) actually does hang out here and collaborate with us 12:48 < quaid> +1 12:48 * quaid reminds himself that guide needs some splash this release 12:48 < quaid> time for me to dust off the ol' blog and stuff 12:49 -!- dbewley1 [n=dlbewley@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 12:49 < quaid> hey dbewley1 12:50 < quaid> ok, I've got that deadline and stuff in the tasks now 12:50 < quaid> is that all the "now that F10 is done" stuff? 12:51 < quaid> ok 12:52 < dbewley1> greets 12:52 * stickster is torn in several directions right now, sorry 12:52 < quaid> s'ok 12:52 < quaid> one thing that is great btw ... 12:53 < quaid> this release we had 3x the participation 12:53 < quaid> cf. the last few releases 12:53 < quaid> so our task is keeping and increasing momentum 12:53 < quaid> v. 'drag it up from the mud with bootstraps' :) 12:53 * stickster brb, has to close down and ssh in from elsewhere 12:53 < quaid> actually, it might be more than 3x, but it's pretty significant in comparison 12:53 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk 12:54 < quaid> and man ... the bugs are rolling in for the IG and relnotes, that seems like more than usual 12:55 < quaid> which is not intended as a negative reflection :) 12:55 < quaid> I don't think we have more bugs than usual, just more interest in helping us fix them 12:56 < ke4qqq> and thats a good thing 12:56 < dbewley1> should we not make any changes to F10 wiki relnotes at this point? Like including things from Common Bugs page? 12:57 < quaid> dbewley1: wiki beats are done, all changes should be to the XML 12:58 < quaid> dbewley1: good question in that we do want to discuss the plan for the next update of f-r-n package + web update 12:58 < quaid> dbewley1: as for common bugs, if there needs to be changes in the relnotes, someone who cares about the bug needs to file a bug report 12:58 < dbewley1> quaid: that answers that. :) so edits should go on common bugs and features pages etc for now 12:58 < quaid> one of the reasons for the wiki page is that it is easier to update than the relnotes; hopefully those bugs get fixed instead :) 12:58 < quaid> dbewley1: yes 12:58 < dbewley1> quaid: no prob. just added something to common bugs earlier when someone wanted it on the relnotes 13:00 < quaid> we can spin a new web update relatively easily, and there are some open bugs 13:00 < quaid> be a good learning experience for anyone to do the fixes in the XML, then I can republish 13:01 < ke4qqq> ohhh so would pushing the web updates 13:01 < dbewley1> that's a hill i don't have time to climb myself anytime soon :) learn git and docbook etc 13:01 * ke4qqq would like to watch in screen 13:02 < quaid> hmm, yeah 13:03 < ke4qqq> though how much of that matters if we move to publican? 13:03 < quaid> or using 'script' and publishing it out 13:03 < quaid> well, good question 13:03 < quaid> actually, it all still applies 13:04 < quaid> it's the CMS that replaces the web publishing 13:05 < ke4qqq> hmmmm ok 13:05 < quaid> and ... man, it's some deep black magic again, not sure I want to waste anyone else's braincells :) 13:06 < ke4qqq> perhaps it's time better spent learning the CMS 13:07 < quaid> yeah 13:08 -!- mhideo [n=mhideo@nat/redhat/x-81ad4e02dde4f83c] has joined #fedora-docs 13:12 < quaid> ok, tasks updated for moving forward 13:12 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_admin_tasks_for_experienced_contributors 13:12 * quaid actually wrote 'moving forward' darnit 13:15 -!- kennepede [n=pkennedy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 13:16 < quaid> ok, that's enough for the day :) 13:17 < quaid> anything else or shall I close the meeting loop? 13:17 * quaid does a countdown in his head 13:18 < quaid> done! 13:18 < quaid> </meeting>
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