On the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Docs_IRC_log_20081105 ... and attached. -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41
11:02 < quaid> <meeting id="Docs">
11:02 -!- chitlesh_ is now known as ChitleshGoorah
11:02 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg :: quick roll call and roll
11:02 < quaid> well, three is a quorum
11:03 * stickster here
11:03 * ke4qqq is present
11:03 < stickster> quaid: Go for it
11:04 * quaid wool gathering
11:04 < stickster> haha
11:04 * stickster falling asleep.
11:04 < quaid> ok, a few final deadlines are iminent
11:04 < quaid> ref. email to f-docs-l this morning
11:04 * stickster wakes up ("Wha, huh, who, eh?")
11:04 -!- hanthana_ [n=hanthana@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:05 * stickster saw that email, just made some quick adjustments to the wiki on those repos' Trac instances
11:05 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-November/msg00042.html
11:05 < quaid> k
11:06 < quaid> first, am I missing anything that is due?
11:06 < quaid> this follows on the email to f-trans-l yesterday
11:06 < quaid> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-10/f-10-docs-tasks.html
11:07 < quaid> I'm most concerned about sync on the relnotes; I think I'm going to have to go over all parts of it
11:07 < quaid> hoping those go quickly :)
11:07 < stickster> I'm very concerned about those too :-(
11:07 < quaid> the problem is ...
11:08 < quaid> ideally it's a task "anyone" can do
11:08 < stickster> It's just really hard thanks to the transclusions
11:08 < quaid> but it's a bit messed up now and I'm not sure how that can happen without having more knowledge
11:09 < stickster> quaid: I think I did everything from the top down to Live images already
11:09 < stickster> And have been visiting the pages upon getting wiki commit notices, so the watches would stay current
11:09 < quaid> 'did' in which sense?
11:10 * quaid is wondering if you mean carried to XML
11:10 < stickster> quaid: Sorry, 'did' == 'sync wiki content with relnotes content, making fixes in both where required'
11:10 < quaid> k
11:10 < stickster> s/relnotes/XML/
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11:10 < stickster> In some cases I was seeing ESL contributors making corrections that weren't... well, correct
11:11 < quaid> right
11:11 < ke4qqq> hmmmm wonder if I am one of those contributors :)
11:11 < stickster> I tried to capture the sense of the change if there was something to be gained
11:11 < quaid> ok
11:11 < stickster> ke4qqq: No, Southerners don't count as ESL in my book :-D
11:12 < quaid> our procedure calls for sync'ing changes made during the XML process back to the wiki, but that didn't happen this time; and every time I face that step, I hate it.
11:12 < quaid> for next time, I'd like to reconsider that step :)
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11:12 < quaid> that is, once converted, the XML becomes canonical _for_that_release_, but we still accept changes to the wiki and migrate to make it easy for people.
11:12 < quaid> but they _must_ refer to the built from XML as canonical before they make changes
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11:13 < ke4qqq> I agree except for accepting changes to the wiki
11:13 < ke4qqq> let them file tickets in trac
11:13 < ke4qqq> or edit directly in xml
11:14 * stickster tickled that ke4qqq wants to get back to the draconian thing that stickster used to advocate
11:14 < ke4qqq> you'll hate me when you get down to amateur radio and see all of the changes (in lots of incremental steps)
11:14 < quaid> past experience says that reduces the # of contributions; OTOH Trac is easier to use than BZ, which was the equivalent in the past.
11:14 < ke4qqq> how many people edited relnotes when you asked?
11:14 < ke4qqq> and even more, how many of those are you having to revert
11:14 < quaid> no real statistics, just gut feel atm.
11:14 < stickster> A small handful, four to six people maybe?
11:15 < stickster> Oh
11:15 < stickster> never mind me
11:15 < stickster> I thought you asked a different question than the one you *really* asked.
11:15 < quaid> well, I'm not tracking like that, that's all :)
11:15 < stickster> Well there's no two ways about it, wiki <-> XML is just frickin' painful.
11:16 < ke4qqq> trac worked well for IG
11:16 < ke4qqq> I think
11:16 < stickster> That hasn't changed since the dawn of time.
11:16 < quaid> also ... once the package is in the Preview Release, people need to file actual bug reports
11:16 < stickster> quaid: What about taking all the pages once we go to PR, and moving them out of Docs/Beats and into Archive: somewhere?
11:16 < quaid> we really don't want to confuse people about where to file bug reports, and I fear throwing Trac in there does that.
11:16 < stickster> That would kind of force the issue, wouldn't it?
11:16 < quaid> stickster: the problem there is the timing
11:17 < quaid> we are getting comments from the Beta, not PR
11:17 < quaid> PR happens so close to our freeze for trans that we really don't get much from the PR for the relnotes.
11:17 < stickster> quaid: Now you see why we really need to be having this conversation with the lovable poelcat
11:17 < stickster> ;-)
11:17 < quaid> rilly?
11:18 < quaid> he doesn't control that part of the schedule, though
11:18 < stickster> "control," no... but "helps bring sanity to"
11:18 < quaid> and it's our choice to not put out a package for the Beta
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11:18 < quaid> releng sees the PR as an actual preview, near RC
11:19 < quaid> where we are using it as a beta for the relnotes, in a sense
11:19 < quaid> so i don't see releng giving more time in the schedule between Beta and PR parts.
11:19 < quaid> otoh, we _could_ consider putting out a package for the Beta, etc.
11:19 < stickster> quaid: Or simply base it on the actual development freeze date
11:20 < quaid> right
11:20 < stickster> which is somewhere between Beta and PR,
11:20 < stickster> iirc
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11:20 < quaid> ok, we have some stuff to ponder here then
11:20 < quaid> for the next release, etc.
11:20 < quaid> today is just the pain :)
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11:21 < quaid> ACTION: Wed, Thu #fedora-docs focused on beat -> XML for relnotes
11:21 < quaid> when I'm done with my expense reports, I'll start on that, and do what I can to help anyone else who wants to help.
11:22 * stickster will do what he can too
11:22 < stickster> action to progress in #fedora-docs per usual, right?
11:23 * ke4qqq will volunteer to help as he can - but doesn't know about availability ATM
11:23 < quaid> yeah, no worries on that
11:23 < quaid> stickster: yep
11:23 < quaid> we'll drag some others in, you'll see :)
11:25 -!- nim-nim [n=nim-nim@fedora/nim-nim] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
11:25 < quaid> ke4qqq, stickster btw, in case I haven't said this clearly ... I REALLY appreciate the prodding and questioning I get from folks such as you two; I'm so mentally tied up around Docs that it's hard to see the forest and the trees; but I have a deep imperative to make this clock tick.
11:25 < quaid> and that's enough mixed metaphors!
11:25 < quaid> so keep up the good work, etc.
11:25 * stickster throws in the goose, the golden egg, and a frying pan for good measure
11:25 * quaid gets that feeling in his stomach at every stupid hole in Docs he steps through all the time, and has an addictive-enabling reaction to it too often
11:26 < quaid> like ... "I should have solved this years ago when it was easy."
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11:26 < quaid> ok, I think ...
11:26 < quaid> we can skip the task list right now, we touched upon the important stuff.
11:27 < quaid> also ...
11:27 * stickster has realized that prodding's OK as long as it's gentle and constructive
11:27 < quaid> ACTION: IG all day on #fedora-docs Thu, Fri
11:27 < quaid> stickster: I like to think I trained you for FPL by having to do that to me for previous years :)
11:27 < stickster> :-D
11:27 < quaid> so I would *love* to talk about our web publishing future
11:27 < stickster> *pffft it was often the other way
11:28 * quaid missed who put that on the agenda, but thx
11:28 < stickster> quaid: web pub <-- as if *that* wasn't apropos!
11:28 * quaid steps through another hole
11:28 < stickster> hee hee
11:29 < ke4qqq> ohhh yeah aren't you supposed to have a CMS picked out :)
11:29 < stickster> again with the prodding :-D
11:29 < stickster> no no, kidding
11:29 * ke4qqq couldn't resist
11:29 < stickster> This is much more of a joint deal than just quaid picking something, to be sure
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11:31 < quaid> yeah
11:31 < quaid> but I haven't been prodding us all along on that
11:31 < quaid> it really was my own fault for trying to push before release
11:31 < quaid> otoh, we do have a few "quiet" weeks coming up
11:31 < quaid> and Nigel has a host we can play on
11:32 < stickster> quaid: Seems to me that FUDCon should be used as a "Have everything decided so we can make liftoff" date
11:32 < quaid> could be
11:32 < quaid> but I
11:32 < quaid> 'd rather have it be
11:32 < quaid> a "finish the last bits" :)
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11:32 < quaid> I wonder if we can pick a tool ourselves, as-is
11:32 < quaid> then go seek an implementor
11:32 < quaid> put out the word, ask for someone with skills in $X
11:33 * ke4qqq would feel better if we did that with our shortlist
11:33 < quaid> hmm
11:33 < quaid> yeah, that could work
11:34 < quaid> build on and improve our MediaWiki migration model
11:34 < ke4qqq> that way we can take into account available talent in our decision making process
11:34 * stickster notes that strategically speaking we should make sure "take into account available talent" doesn't end up meaning "stretch thin resources thinner"
11:35 < stickster> i.e. let's try to grow the number of people involved by reaching into the outside communities if possible
11:35 < ke4qqq> hmmmm wonder if that's something we can recruit for
11:36 < quaid> e.g. Drupal folks have responded about CMS in the past
11:36 < stickster> quaid: Funny, I was thinking the same thing
11:36 * ke4qqq thinks that would be cool - add a contributor from upstream.
11:36 < stickster> And drupal is one of the few CMS' actively tracked and carried in Fedora
11:37 < ke4qqq> and it would give us ven more of a in if we need upstream to add features/fix bugs
11:37 < ke4qqq> s/ven/even
11:37 < stickster> but...
11:37 < stickster> http://extensions.joomla.org/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,534/Itemid,35/
11:39 < ke4qqq> would you really use a wysiwyg?
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11:40 < stickster> ke4qqq: It should be extensible to do wysiwyg or $EDITOR, if not handled already
11:41 < quaid> http://drupal.org/project/Modules
11:41 < quaid> how about this ...
11:42 * quaid starts doing numbering, ready?
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11:42 < stickster> quaid: Yeah, looks like they have an export function (HTML => DocBook XML, i.e.lossy)
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11:42 < quaid> 1. We make a big public splash that we are hunting hard
11:42 < quaid> 2. Talk lots on f-docs-l for a week and pick a shortlist
11:42 < quaid> 3. announce that shortlist and that we are actively trying things out; put up test instances, give test drives
11:43 < quaid> 4. Amongst that, we mention again that we need actual talent to deliver the solution within Fedora, and invite those folks to join the discussion and help us with the decision process.
11:43 < quaid> 5. Ideally we get both a decision and a doer at the same time
11:43 < quaid> 6. Optionally we discover we aren't going to get it that easy, but we do get a shortlist or a single choice; then we can decide if we want to troll with the shortlist.
11:43 -!- sdziallas [n=sebastia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
11:44 * quaid means 'troll' in the fishin' sense :)
11:44 -!- sdziallas_ is now known as sdziallas
11:44 * stickster down with that
11:44 * ke4qqq likes that plan
11:44 * stickster notes that he was just at Ontario LF and Joomla! was there. :-( Would have been a good opportunity to chat if not for timing
11:44 < stickster> ah well, email works regardless ;-)
11:44 < quaid> so we sort-of get what ke4qqq suggested, with enough looseness to not thin out resources, and enough talk to attract from those outside commnities.
11:45 < quaid> stickster: right, and we can do some reach out to people stuff; I may have met their mentor, for example.
11:45 < ke4qqq> joomla isn't available in fedora is it? so it'd have to get packaged?
11:45 * quaid notes that Drupal GSoC mentors included a 16 year old and a 13 year old, who otherwise was not qualified for GSoC or GHOP
11:46 < quaid> ke4qqq: that becomes part of the requirement; the task doer might need to become the packager.
11:46 < quaid> but if some of these projects might be willing to help for the increased usage, awareness, and press-splashiness of "Fedora Documentation chooses $FOO!"
11:46 < stickster> ke4qqq: Yes, would have to be packaged.
11:46 < quaid> and in that case, packaging behooves them even more.
11:47 * quaid wonders wtf Joomla isn't packaged for Fedora
11:47 < stickster> Not sure
11:48 < stickster> But it's gotta be license compliant
11:48 < quaid> yeah, I've seen them at places but never asked.
11:48 * stickster will check it out
11:49 < quaid> ok, so that's a plan, too
11:49 < quaid> anything else on this topic or ... ready to move on or close?
11:49 -!- jsmith [n=njsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting
11:49 < stickster> Oh, look who finally decides to join the party!
11:49 * jsmith is terribly late... got caught up in other meetings
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11:49 * stickster kids, he kids
11:50 * ke4qqq would love to see alfresco in the running and manage to get packaged at the same time - but don't know that it's a fit
11:50 < jsmith> Yup... sorry guys.
11:50 < jsmith> ke4qqq: Even better... there's a plugin for Alfresco designed for Docbook
11:50 * jsmith can't remember the name... starts with a C
11:50 < stickster> Cabinet of Dr. Caligari?
11:51 < stickster> Cabernet?
11:51 * ke4qqq REALLY likes Alfresco - but again don't know that it's a fit for us
11:51 < quaid> ke4qqq: Alfresco themselves are supposed to be working on packaging, but I haven't heard from Lee in a while.
11:51 < stickster> Yeah, too quiet on that front to be hopeful just yet
11:51 < jsmith> Componize!
11:52 < jsmith> That's what it's called
11:52 < stickster> Voltron!
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11:53 < stickster> quaid: nothing more from here
11:53 < quaid> same here
11:53 < quaid> closing in 10
11:54 < quaid> 5
11:54 < quaid> 4
11:54 < quaid> 3
11:54 < quaid> 2
11:54 < quaid> 1
11:54 < quaid> </meeting>
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