In wiki format: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080528 12:07 < quaid> <meeting> 12:07 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- welcomes 12:07 < quaid> ... and welcome 12:08 -!- jmtaylor [n=jason@fedora/jmtaylor] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:08 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:09 < quaid> roll call for easy record keeping, if you are here ... 12:09 < quaid> <- Karsten is here 12:09 < jmbuser> JohnBabich 12:09 < Sparks> Eric Christensen 12:09 -!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:10 * quaid is getting agenda up on his screen 12:10 -!- mcepl [n=matej@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has left #fedora-meeting ["Bye bye!"] 12:10 < jmbuser> JohnBabich the psychic 12:10 < quaid> heh 12:10 * ianweller lurks 12:10 < quaid> ok, I saw couf join 12:10 < quaid> and jsmith is half-here 12:10 < quaid> stickster_afk is at a booth or dinner or something 12:11 * jsmith wishes he were eating dinner 12:11 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo rollin' in the hood -- Elections! 12:11 < quaid> cool, we have everyone here to discuss elections, governance, and the like 12:11 < quaid> paul posted a bit on list 12:11 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00093.html 12:12 * quaid waits a moment for others to read the thread 12:13 < quaid> ok 12:13 < Sparks> There was also some additional conversation that was had but it didn't go much further 12:13 < quaid> some differeint ideas there, ditt and sparks 12:14 < quaid> what I propose is this: 12:14 < quaid> i. we discuss until :35 at the latest 12:14 < quaid> ii. see if we have a consensus 12:14 < quaid> iii. if not, push the discussion contents back to the list and continue 12:15 < Sparks> +1 12:15 < quaid> I started the whole thing off because we are looking at how we govern in Fedora, and I think it makes sense to review on a subproj basis if we are following a formula that works for us or not 12:15 < jmbuser> +1 12:16 < jmbuser> continue 12:17 * quaid could talk for 20 minutes if he isn't careful :) 12:17 < quaid> simple idea: 12:17 < quaid> how do we turn from "the leader" into "a leader" and "A group of leaders"? 12:17 < quaid> eol 12:18 < jmbuser> We already seem to have a pretty motivated group of people 12:18 < jsmith> quaid: People don't learn to lead by watching a leader. They learn to lead by having adversity thrown at them 12:19 -!- fab [n=bellet@xxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:19 < jsmith> The person you call "the leader" is simply the one that's experienced the most adversity, and done the best at getting through it 12:19 -!- spoleeba [n=one@fedora/Jef] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:19 < quaid> what is interesting to me is this ... we have a process we've defined, and we have a way we've grown organically ... and they don't necessarily match 12:19 < jmbuser> This is not that unusual 12:20 < quaid> do we fix the process then? dissolve it? 12:20 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf@fedora/wolfy] has left #fedora-meeting ["The chief excitement in a woman's life is spotting women who are fatter than she is."] 12:20 < Sparks> In my opinion, I think the Steering Committee is too bulky for where I see the DocsProject is currently at 12:21 < jmbuser> Planned processes and the way things actually work out are usually two different things 12:21 < quaid> spoleeba: you might want to throw in here -- discussing governance of Docs, how to work with SIGs, etc. 12:21 < jmbuser> The solution is to have the process reflect reality 12:21 < quaid> spoleeba: or you might rightly say, "not my place, proceed" :) 12:21 < Sparks> If we defined a chair and a vice-chair I think they could "steer" the process 12:21 < quaid> reality is -- interestd people show up at a meeting time, on list, etc. 12:22 < quaid> Sparks: I see that, as a group, Fedora appreciates where there is a named leader or two or three so people know who to "go to" 12:22 < Sparks> Exactly 12:22 < Sparks> But I don't think we have the following necessary for a committee to lead the project 12:23 * jsmith agrees 12:23 < quaid> oh good 12:23 < quaid> that's how I've been feeling :) 12:23 < jsmith> In fact, I'd gladly give up my seat on the said commitee 12:23 < quaid> the committee weight is a bit heavy to maneuver with 12:23 < jsmith> (as I've been practically worthless lately) 12:23 < quaid> or 12:24 < quaid> make it "opt in" 12:24 < quaid> you want in, you are in 12:24 < quaid> you want out, just say you are disappearing for a while 12:24 < quaid> and let people "breathe" that way as per their life 12:24 < Sparks> That works 12:24 < quaid> I've been fortunate to have more Fedora time now, but I've always had weeks or months where I disappear into RHT work 12:25 < Sparks> We, as a project, should be able to say "we want this"... and we already do, really 12:25 < quaid> yep 12:25 < quaid> as for picking chair/v-chair stuff ... ideas that occur to me are: 12:25 < quaid> * have that as a general subproj election 12:25 < quaid> * have the opt-in FDSCo do it for everyone else 12:25 < quaid> sorry, that was 1 and 2 12:26 < jmbuser> "Is Fedora Docs going to remain a project or become a SIG?" is the question to ask, in my opinion 12:26 < quaid> 3. don't elect, just make sure things move around often enough 12:26 < quaid> 4. don't elect but have a clear process to kick out people who become tyrants 12:26 * jmbuser is always out of phase lately - sorry 12:26 < quaid> jmbuser: now, there is a way to ask that question, but I think it is already answered 12:27 < jsmith> Let me throw out one other question... is this a case of "much ado about nothing"? 12:27 < quaid> I support the general scheme that spoleeba (Jef) has proposed. 12:27 < quaid> in that one, Docs is clearly a subproject 12:27 -!- mccann [n=jmccann@nat/redhat-us/x-4789468b54e83c36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27 < quaid> and each SIG has a docs role to fill, with that person connecting back up to Docs the subproj 12:27 < jsmith> I mean, has the FDSCo really been that bad? 12:27 < quaid> jsmith: not bad, just ... 12:28 < quaid> jsmith: we said we'd have elections and stuff 12:28 < jsmith> quaid: And we have... at least I think I got elected somehow 12:28 < quaid> jsmith: so we need to be clear what we are doing, for those in the proj but not involved in leading, etc. 12:28 -!- mccann [n=jmccann@nat/redhat-us/x-fdef7a5fbd075095] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:28 < quaid> jsmith: I mean, it's time again for elections :) 12:28 < Sparks> +1 to quaid's list... 12:28 < quaid> turnout has been not very big nor grown across elections; in fact, I think it might have declined 12:28 < Sparks> I think we should "elect" or "appoint" a leader of some sort 12:29 < quaid> how about this as a scheme: 12:29 < jsmith> FSSCo senate? 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint 12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering 12:30 < jsmith> +1 12:30 < jsmith> WORKSFORME 12:30 < Sparks> +1 12:30 * quaid is thinking it looks OK and quite a bit like what we do already :) 12:31 < Sparks> It is... only less strict... more flexible 12:31 < jsmith> quaid: And yes, if you become an evil tyrant we'll kick you out ;-) 12:31 < jmbuser> In that anyone who wants to be on the steering committee generally gets elected, it doesn't seem to be much different 12:31 * quaid is happy we found a way to make Sparks' vote official, too :) 12:31 < jsmith> be right back 12:32 < jmbuser> than what you propose 12:32 < quaid> jmbuser: right, except we artificially constrained the SCo before, so people who cannot be active are "taking slots" from people who can be active right now; so yeah, better 12:32 -!- RodrigoPadula [i=c8c6c292@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-15a8c9d839c8dfb7] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:33 < RodrigoPadula> hello guys! 12:33 < jmbuser> In other words, people get elected, then their life situation changes, then someone else becomes active between elections? 12:33 < spoleeba> let me ask this.. do you have a handle on the number of active people are in the fas groups you think should have a say in the direction of docs? 12:33 < quaid> I don't think so 12:33 < quaid> that said, 12:33 < quaid> most such people tend to come in there anyway in some fashion 12:34 < quaid> but we are not well represented from certain groups 12:34 < spoleeba> is that number big enough to support an election? elections on make sense if you need representative governance..versus referendum 12:35 < spoleeba> if sigs grow doc roles...then maybe you'll need elections of some sort 12:37 < quaid> +1 12:37 -!- J5_ [n=quintice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:37 < quaid> when it gets to where we have some actual contention to elect against :) 12:38 < quaid> right now it's like a girls club electing "officers" 12:38 < quaid> which was important 12:38 < quaid> back when we needed to make it clear RHT wasn't puppetizing things 12:38 < jmbuser> What about high-level decisions like not documenting closed-binary workarounds? 12:38 < quaid> now that we all know that RHT barely notices Docs (j/k ... 12:39 < quaid> jmbuser: where it's not clear from the overall project, SCo should be able to handle that 12:39 < jmbuser> Encouraging FOSS solutions instead? 12:39 < quaid> well, if in the future that becomes OK to do in Fedora, we'll follow suit. 12:40 < quaid> I mean, Fedora doesn't support closed binary workaround, so we don't have to, and really shouldn't 12:40 < quaid> if we do our job right and are visible enough, the rest of Fedora will make sure we don't drift, too :) 12:41 < quaid> ok, we went over the mark 12:41 < quaid> but I think we got some consensus, yes? 12:41 < jmbuser> please sum up 12:42 < quaid> ok, let's see ... 12:42 * jsmith stumbles back 12:42 < Sparks> +1 12:42 < quaid> 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo is opt-in, consisting of all who want to be involved in steering 12:42 < quaid> 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo has the charge to make sure leadership remains relevant 12:42 < quaid> 12:29 < quaid> * FDSCo decides to elect or appoint 12:42 < quaid> 12:30 < quaid> * If project members have problems with any of that, the answer is obviously to opt-in to the process and help from within the steering 12:42 < quaid> add to that: 12:42 < quaid> FDSCo elects or appoints leadership as they see fit. 12:42 < quaid> and what I propose: 12:43 < quaid> all FDSCo members say "I am a Fedora Docs Leader" 12:43 < quaid> and we emphasize points of contact that are subject matter focused rather than one big daddy 12:43 < quaid> (that is a grow-to strategy that includes better DocsProject pages to help others find their SME) 12:44 < quaid> eosummary 12:44 < quaid> SME == subject matter expert 12:44 < quaid> did I miss anything? 12:44 -!- kms [n=kms@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:44 * jmbuser is starting to "get it" 12:45 < jsmith> quaid: You forget that we're going to elect you puppet dictator for life 12:45 < jmbuser> All hail, quaid! 12:45 < jsmith> quaid: But other than that minor issue, you've hit the issue squarely on the head 12:45 < quaid> hey, I have an ego, too 12:45 < Sparks> quaid quaid quaid quaid 12:45 < jsmith> quaid++ 12:45 < jmbuser> MIB II reference :-) 12:45 < quaid> anyone who says they aren't proud of their roles in Fedora is probably lying :) 12:45 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:46 < jsmith> quaid: I'm not proud of my role on FDSCo... does that count? 12:47 < Sparks> So that went twice as long as was "allowed"... :) 12:48 < quaid> word 12:48 < quaid> anything more? 12:48 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg rolls onward -- release notes 9.0.2-1 12:48 < quaid> anyone here know anything? 12:49 * jsmith doesn't know *anything* 12:49 < quaid> mdious isn't here, it's middle of night in .au 12:49 < quaid> stickster_afk is dining still 12:49 * quaid is joking, he doesn't know 12:49 < quaid> ok, moving on 12:49 < jsmith> ~hail gluttony! 12:49 -!- tiagoaoa [i=c8c6c292@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d005906909200f78] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:49 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... 12:49 < quaid> let's make this the final topic for now 12:49 < quaid> oh, sorry 12:49 < quaid> Sparks had some stuff too 12:50 < Sparks> Not really... It can wait. 12:50 < quaid> Sparks: are those sub topics to wiki gardening? 12:50 < Sparks> Yes 12:50 < couf> pong, sorry 12:50 < quaid> if you say yes, then go ahead, that's as good a place to start as any 12:50 < Sparks> Okay... So wiki gardening... 12:50 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo is as FDSCo does -- Wiki gardening ... UG, SecG, Other, cleaning up projects list ... 12:50 < Sparks> I've been making a run through the DocsProject and Documentation pages... 12:51 < quaid> (it's been going pretty well, IMO, thanks to all who have been helping) 12:51 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:51 < Sparks> and I think I've hit most of the 'big' pages... 12:51 < quaid> +1 sweet 12:51 < Sparks> but if you want to see how many pages are actually attributed to the DocsProject... 12:51 < Sparks> just go to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:DocsProject. 12:52 < Sparks> This brings up my first request... 12:52 < tiagoaoa> let me see if I can talk here 12:52 < Sparks> categories. 12:52 < tiagoaoa> yep.. not moderated, see? 12:52 < Sparks> tiagoaoa Go ahead 12:52 < tiagoaoa> nevermind 12:52 < quaid> Sparks: we can have categories in cats, right? 12:53 < Sparks> quaid: We can have anything we want. 12:53 < Sparks> Looks like Drkludge wrote something for our category... 12:53 < quaid> tiagoaoa: if you are having trouble talking in a #fedora-* channel, the channel topic there should point you at directions for registering your nick. 12:53 < quaid> Sparks: what are you thinking about for cats? 12:54 < Sparks> so that if anyone clicks on the category it will give them some information on what it is. 12:54 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:54 < Sparks> There seems to be two... DocsProject and Documentation 12:54 < quaid> they are different 12:54 < quaid> one is content useful for people, the other is the project that maintains that content 12:54 < Sparks> If we can flag all the Documentation as such then it would make it easier to maintain and have people find it 12:54 < quaid> true that 12:54 < Sparks> quaid: exactly 12:55 < quaid> do we want to move the actual docs out from the DocsProject cat? 12:55 < Sparks> I'd like to propose we also do one for the drafts. 12:55 < quaid> what about a namespace? 12:55 < Sparks> quaid: I don't know. That was one of my questions 12:55 < quaid> Docs: or something 12:55 < quaid> ianweller: can we have a page in multiple, non-nested categories? 12:55 -!- Ludvick [n=ludvick_@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:56 < quaid> ianweller: or should we have a Documentation cat, and a DocumetationDraft sub-cat? 12:56 < Sparks> quaid: yes... Check the security guide. 12:56 < ianweller> it depends on how you want to do it. do you want your drafts in [[Category:Documentation]]? 12:56 < quaid> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Documentation 12:56 < quaid> ok, I see 12:56 < jsmith> Gotta run again... 12:56 -!- jsmith is now known as jsmith-away 12:56 < ianweller> if not, make them separate; if so, add [[Category:Documentation]] to the page for Category:DocumentationDraft 12:56 < quaid> ianweller: yes 12:57 < Sparks> ianweller: cool... hadn't thought of that. 12:57 < quaid> that seems clear enough 12:57 < quaid> Sparks: +1 to the general idea, fwiw 12:57 -!- J5 [n=quintice@nat/redhat-us/x-0f613b84aea53d37] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:57 < Sparks> Yeah, just trying to get a standard out there 12:57 < quaid> I want to see us leading others in how to use MediaWiki to our advantage 12:57 < Sparks> the cats make it VERY easy to maintain things 12:57 < quaid> ianweller: what is the advantage of a Namespace: over or alongside a Category: ? 12:58 < quaid> Sparks: can you write up a policy? DocsProject/Categories or something 12:58 < Sparks> Sure 12:58 < quaid> policy/procedure/guideline whatever 12:58 < Sparks> guide 12:58 < Sparks> that's not a problem 12:58 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 12:58 < Sparks> Anyone have anything else? If not I'll go on to the orphan pages and that will be it for me 12:59 < quaid> I want to talk about namespaces but need to grok it better 12:59 < quaid> so we can move on to orphaned, sure 12:59 < Sparks> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages 12:59 * quaid reading http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace 12:59 -!- rdieter_away is now known as rdieter 12:59 < Sparks> So this page shows all the pages in the wiki that aren't linked to any other page in the wiki 12:59 < quaid> oooooh, nice Special: page 12:59 < ianweller> quaid: i'm trying to search for what would be a good reason to completely switch over to namespaces 12:59 < Sparks> Lots of fun stuff in here. 13:00 < quaid> wow, there are tons there 13:00 < quaid> for the MoinEditorBackup, ianweller or someone was looking at a way to mass delete them 13:00 < Sparks> Yeah, and if they aren't linked some how then they are only going to be found by a search which to me is inefficient 13:01 < quaid> that one is on the Migration Masters to-do list 13:01 < Sparks> yeah 13:01 < quaid> Sparks: well ... 13:01 < quaid> Sparks: one thing about MW is search is useful 13:01 < quaid> Sparks: also, they might be linked from the outside, which is legit 13:01 < quaid> I'd want to see a cross between this list and a Google frequency of some kind 13:01 < Sparks> I'm not saying we should go in and try to shoehorn all these pages in, but there are a lot of DocsProject files out there that need some love 13:01 < quaid> to use it as a basis for declaring orphans 13:01 < quaid> that is true 13:01 < Sparks> I agree 13:01 < quaid> ok, we are out of time 13:02 < Sparks> Yep, the orphan thing was just food for thought. 13:02 < Sparks> eof 13:02 < quaid> let's move this over to #fedora-docs to continue, a policy will take more discussion. 13:02 < quaid> ok, then, cool 13:02 < quaid> thanks everyone 13:02 < quaid> </meeting>
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