HTML log here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20080423 11:08 < quaid> <meeting> 11:08 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda 11:08 < quaid> going to go through a quick rundown 11:08 < quaid> even though not sure anyone is here :) 11:09 * quaid waits exactly one minute to 18:10.20 11:09 -!- jsmith [n=jsmith@xxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:09 * jsmith is here... at least in theory 11:09 < quaid> word 11:09 < jsmith> I'm juggling projects at the moment 11:09 < quaid> a few more seconds 11:10 * quaid is a juggle 11:12 -!- J5_ [n=quintice@nat/redhat/x-e216423445de749b] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:13 * quaid back from network drop, sry 11:13 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg - Installation Guide (IG) 11:14 < quaid> stickster has been doing some work on this 11:14 < quaid> all other work and EvilBob are MIA at this point 11:15 < quaid> going to send a request today to the list to get all hands on the IG and the UG from now 11:15 < quaid> anyone with anything else? 11:15 * quaid waits 30 seconds 11:15 < Southern_Gentlem> quaid i will get Evilbob on the IG this week 11:16 < quaid> Southern_Gentlem: thx; the concern is we don't know what was or was not done by his IG writing team 11:16 < quaid> so we're likely to duplicate or overcome that work 11:16 < quaid> which was, btw, why I argued for *all* that work to happen in regular irc, mailing list, and CVS 11:17 < quaid> but, good lord, yes, all hands are needed :) 11:17 * quaid prepares to move on topic-wise ... 11:17 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg - Update on other active content work 11:18 < quaid> User Guide -- finishing for F9, keep momentum going 11:18 < quaid> UG -- F8 finish, has to be put behind IG work now 11:18 < quaid> SMG -- couf passed on the XML work, now we need to get that bad boy published 11:19 * quaid ponders if jsmith wants to learn that particular trivia 11:19 < quaid> Sec G - sparks has been working on it, post F9 draft target 11:19 < quaid> AG - post f9 release draft target 11:20 < quaid> release notes -- were going to do some updates from the wiki to the POT but none of us followed through, we need to decide quickly if we are going to mess with that or not 11:20 < jsmith> quaid: Yeah, couf told me he gave me an A+ on it... I'm still in shock 11:20 < quaid> -- above discussion on list? 11:20 < jsmith> Yeah, push it to the list 11:20 < quaid> jsmith: eh, if you know DocBook it's not hard of a task :) 11:20 < quaid> ok, any more on that ol' content what is active? 11:21 < jsmith> Not that I can think of... 11:21 < jsmith> What exactly is involved in publishing the SMG? It got branched for the PackageKit update, right? 11:22 < jsmith> Did the PackageKit updates ever get put into DocBook? 11:22 < Southern_Gentlem> define SMG please 11:23 < Southern_Gentlem> IG is install guide UG is User Guide 11:23 < jsmith> SGM is the Software Management Guide 11:23 < Southern_Gentlem> ty and AG is? 11:23 < quaid> Admin GUide 11:23 < jsmith> (formerly the yum-software-management guide) 11:23 < quaid> sry for TLA fever :) 11:24 < quaid> jsmith: most likely no on the PK changes 11:24 < quaid> jsmith: publishing is ... 11:24 * quaid gets URL 11:24 -!- LetoT1 [n=paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:25 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@fedora/JSchmitt] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:25 < quaid> jsmith: anyway, I can show you after the meeting; that is, discuss it later out of the meeting :) 11:26 < jsmith> Fair enough 11:26 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- AOB 11:26 < jsmith> I don't know what else to discuss without the other folks here 11:26 < quaid> in that we are almost done :) 11:26 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- All Other Business (AOB) 11:26 < quaid> 'zactly 11:26 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EditingFedoraRedhatCom 11:26 < quaid> that's the evil that we do to get published still 11:26 < quaid> it's actually a bit like the other websites 11:27 < quaid> we check in changes and tag them LIVE 11:27 -!- DanseMakabre [i=pat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:27 < quaid> it's all PHP includes to build the pages, with the rendering done and pushed as static HTML 11:27 -!- SmootherFrOgZ [n=Smoother@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28 < jsmith> Gotcha 11:28 < quaid> ok, with nothing more ... 11:28 * jsmith votes for ending the meeting 11:28 -!- mether_ [n=ask@nat/redhat-in/x-2972959aedb2ba42] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:28 < quaid> it is so 11:29 < quaid> 5 11:29 < Southern_Gentlem> +1 11:29 < quaid> 4 11:29 < quaid> 3 11:29 < quaid> 2 11:29 < quaid> 1 11:29 < quaid> </meeting> 11:29 * quaid syncs irclogs and posts this easy one 11:29 < jsmith> So let it be written, so let it be done! 11:29 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule 11:30 -!- letoams [n=paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:31 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@fedora/JSchmitt] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 11:32 -!- mether [n=ask@fedora/mether] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:41 -!- Sparks [n=sparks@fedora/Sparks] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:49 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsma@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51 < quaid> I would like to announce to this channel 11:51 < quaid> that I am just a bit stupid 11:51 < quaid> and we will have the actual FDSCo meeting at the *scheduled* time, which is in 10 minutes 11:51 < quaid> if no one new shows up, then we'll just accept the work done previously :) 11:53 < jsmith> quaid: Consider that a "George Bush"-style preemptive meeting 11:54 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsma@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 11:57 < Sparks> quaid: I'm here! I'm here! 11:57 < quaid> jsmith: "I meant to do that" 11:57 < quaid> it was a test 11:57 < quaid> to see if you were awake 11:58 < jsmith> "Had this been an actual meeting, this tone would have been followed by emergency instructions" 11:58 < Sparks> Hey, I can do that in my sleep 11:58 < Sparks> :) 11:58 < Sparks> jsmith: HAHAHA 11:58 * jsmith can fix servers in his sleep... which is really scary 11:58 < Sparks> I think I've been asleep while attempting to fix servers... Just ask my boss. 11:58 < jsmith> Back when I was managing umpteen thousand servers, I could wake up, walk downstairs, log into the VPN, fix a server, go back to bed, and not remember in the morning 11:59 < jsmith> My wife would ask "Why did the pager go off last night?" and I'd be like "What are you talking about?" 11:59 < jsmith> But sure enough, I fixed the server and even sent out an email explaining what I fixed 11:59 < jsmith> Go figure... 11:59 < quaid> Sleepadmin 11:59 < Sparks> Yik4ed 11:59 < quaid> jsmith: freaking spooky! 11:59 < Sparks> uh... Yikes 12:00 < jsmith> quaid: Apparently I could do the same with changing baby diapers as well... 12:00 < quaid> oh, that one I understand 12:00 < jsmith> Just watch out... I might wake up and convert wiki to docbook in the middle of the night ;-) 12:01 < quaid> I used to have such a hard time coming out of a dream 12:01 < quaid> I remember once changing a diaper while dreaming I was wrestling with a rogue operating system 12:01 < quaid> ok, let's do it ... again 12:01 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg redux -- roll call 12:01 < quaid> the trick is ... 12:01 < quaid> if it's the same people, we can just ratify the last hour :) 12:02 < quaid> the irclog from before is in f-docs-l 12:02 < Sparks> EricChristensen 12:02 < jsmith> JaredSmith 12:02 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-April/msg00090.html 12:02 < quaid> KarstenWade semi-here 12:02 < quaid> ok, so ... 12:03 < quaid> Sparks: do you see anything in that irclog you have a question about, comment on, etc.? 12:03 * Sparks reads the previous meeting's notes 12:03 < jsmith> Sparks: Can you also bring us up to speed on the current status of the SMG? 12:04 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg redux -- discuss !meeting log, wait for people to show up a bit late until 1910 12:04 < quaid> jsmith: ah, thx 12:04 < quaid> specifically, the PackageKit changes, do we need to get those into XML? 12:04 < Sparks> Um, I think I can talk on the SMG and the CryptoGuide 12:04 < jsmith> Cool. 12:05 * Sparks pulls up RH Bugzilla to pull some notes 12:05 < Sparks> Okay, I'm ready whenever the firing squad assembles 12:06 < jsmith> Fire! 12:06 < quaid> oh, go ahead 12:06 < Sparks> Okay... 12:06 < quaid> we're just going to make sure we don't close too soon, but with things to discuss :) 12:06 < Sparks> SMG. The only thing left was to add the PackageKit documentation which I had started but hadn't gotten enough info to finish. 12:07 < Sparks> RahulSundaram volunteered to finish up the documentation and thus ticket # 430765 was assigned to him. 12:07 < Sparks> That was on 02Apr. 12:08 < Sparks> I haven't heard anything else on the SMG since. 12:08 < quaid> I don't recall ... 12:08 * quaid checks commit stream 12:08 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-relnotes-content/2008-April/thread.html 12:09 < quaid> it's Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide? 12:09 < quaid> oh, darn 12:09 < quaid> sorry, that list doesn't watch Docs/Drafts/ 12:09 < Sparks> Looking at what little I wrote for PackageKit it doesn't look like it has been touched. 12:09 < quaid> ok 12:10 < Sparks> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide/PackageKit 12:10 < quaid> so the issue is we need someone with expertise? 12:10 < quaid> or just access to the application? 12:10 < Sparks> Both 12:10 < Sparks> I have access to the application but with it still being developed it is hard to pin down the documentation. 12:11 < jsmith> Well, what's going into F9 should be pretty much frozen, right? 12:11 < Sparks> I think Rahul was supposed to write something for the Release Notes? 12:11 < quaid> well, what we see in Preview is going to be it 12:11 < jsmith> Can't we / shouldn't we document what's there? 12:11 < quaid> we can use that 12:12 < quaid> but 12:12 < quaid> the relnotes are just an overview 12:12 < quaid> and point to the SMG as canonical 12:12 < jsmith> Right... 12:12 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PackageKit 12:13 < quaid> under Documentation 12:13 < quaid> http://www.packagekit.org/pk-faq.html 12:13 < Sparks> The SMG as written today (and what I *THINK* made it into CVS) doesn't not address PackageKit but does address everything else. 12:13 < quaid> that's more of a reference, no how-to there 12:14 < Sparks> quaid: How much time do we have to develop this? 12:14 < quaid> 11 May? 12:14 < quaid> at the latest 12:14 < quaid> so we have time to give a final pre-publication once-over 12:15 < Sparks> Okay, I can try to write something up this week so that jsmith and you can look over it. 12:15 < quaid> ok, thanks! 12:15 < jsmith> w00t! 12:15 < Sparks> Did I just say that? 12:16 < quaid> yes, you did 12:16 < Sparks> Dang it! I hate when I do that. 12:16 < quaid> doing an update of the xML from the wiki by hand should be trivial 12:16 < quaid> Sparks: take it to the list, get some additional help 12:16 < quaid> someone may know of existing something or somesuch 12:17 * Sparks never gets help from the list because he always takes the grunt jobs. 12:17 < quaid> true 12:17 < Sparks> :_) 12:17 < quaid> but always worth the traffic 12:17 < Sparks> True 12:18 -!- J5_ [n=quintice@nat/redhat/x-e216423445de749b] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:19 -!- linuxlala [n=linuxlal@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:19 < Sparks> Okay, that's all I got on SMG. I can speak on the CryptoGuide 12:21 < quaid> ok 12:21 < quaid> aka ... 12:21 < quaid> Security Guide 12:22 < quaid> have you laid out a new structure to work from? 12:22 * quaid goes to look 12:22 < Sparks> So... It was the CryptoGuide (which I personally think is a cool name) but got changed to the Privacy and Encryption Guide and is now called the Security Guide. 12:22 < Sparks> It starts at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Security_Guide/ for the "approved and released" side. 12:23 < Sparks> But the meat and potatoes are actually at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/CryptoGuide 12:24 < Sparks> Last weekend I churned some letters together and got the introduction rewritten, established a General Principles of Security chapter, and also wrote up how to do a secure installation. 12:25 < Sparks> Next is to do an overview of Encryption and then go into the different forms (data-at-rest, data-in-motion, etc). 12:25 < quaid> what is the Fedora Sec team interested in seeing? 12:25 < Sparks> a guide 12:25 < Sparks> :) 12:25 < quaid> and how do you feel about the balance of Fedora-specific to general sec info? 12:26 < Sparks> Actually, they want to see the encryption stuff written up so it is easily read and... 12:26 < Sparks> they wanted to see general things to do when setting up Fedora and using Fedora. 12:26 < quaid> right, if there is nothing appropriate that makes sense of it for people, no reason not to write it ourselves. 12:26 -!- nphilipp [n=nils@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:27 < Sparks> quaid: I think I have written everything to be as specific to Fedora as possible. 12:27 -!- GeroldKa [n=GeroldKa@fedora/geroldka] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:27 < quaid> Sparks: no worries, as long as you are having fun 12:28 < quaid> Sparks: another group we can put you in contact with, for content sources, ideas, and consumption, should be the Free IPA and Dogtag projects 12:28 < Sparks> I haven't completely fleshed out everything that I want to put into the doc but I'd like to get Chapters 1 through 3 approved and moved over to the public side before F9 being that people are being asked to go there for information on the Encryption. 12:28 < quaid> +1 12:28 < Sparks> quaid: I'm definately having fun with this one. 12:28 < jsmith> +1 12:28 < quaid> iirc, that content is pretty well vetted already, right? 12:28 < quaid> Ch 1 .. 3 12:29 < Sparks> Yeah, I want to talk about PKI (aka Dog Tag) in there too. 12:29 < quaid> yeah, those guys surely want some help with that content 12:29 < quaid> but also .. 12:29 < Sparks> The information is well vetted... BUT I want someone to look over it to 1) sanity check me, 2) grammar check me, and 3) make sure what I'm saying is what Fedora wants me to say. 12:30 * quaid looks 12:30 < quaid> Sparks: yeah, technical edit was my primary concern there 12:30 * Sparks drools over the thought of the Dog Tag project. 12:30 < quaid> you know there are existing docs, right? 12:30 < quaid> the question is, as usual, do we get access to them ... 12:30 < Sparks> What existing docs are you speaking of? 12:31 < quaid> Cert System docs 12:31 < Sparks> Hmmm 12:31 < quaid> + Directory Server docs 12:31 < quaid> not all relevant, but some 12:31 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/cert-system/ 12:31 < quaid> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/dir-server/ 12:32 < Sparks> Hmmm... I'll have to look at those further. 12:32 * quaid was once-upon-a-time lead writer for that, when we started the conversion of the 3000+ pages from FrameMaker to HTML to XML 12:32 < Sparks> :) 12:33 < Sparks> Where does F8/F9 fall in with RHEL? Is it closer to RHEL 5 than RHEL 4? 12:33 < quaid> yeah, it may not be relevant, who knows? 12:33 < quaid> well, sure, it's closer 12:33 < quaid> quite a bit 12:33 < quaid> but yeah, it's a hard thing to reference old RHEL content, which we have done on-and-off over the years 12:34 < Sparks> Okay. That's good to know as most of the documentation that I'm referencing is designed for RHEL 5. 12:34 < quaid> right 12:34 < Sparks> True 12:34 < jsmith> brb 12:34 < Sparks> RH hasn't released a Security Guide for 5 yet. 12:36 < quaid> I think that content was rolled in to the Deployment Guide 12:36 < Sparks> So with that said, I think I'll be cleaning up the Encryption stuff later this week so it can go out the door. 12:36 < quaid> sweet 12:37 < Sparks> quaid: What's the possibility of rolling out a secure version of Fedora in the future? 12:37 * quaid thought that stuff was secure 12:37 < quaid> Sparks: make a spin? or something different? 12:37 < Sparks> quaid: I'm guessing we'd probably take more heat than on the SELinux debate. 12:38 < quaid> Sparks: how so? 12:38 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: FDSCo mtg -- All Other Business (AOB) 12:38 < Sparks> Well... There are a lot of things that could/should be done by the user to prevent malicious code or attackers from hacking you. TCPWrappers, setting up human groups and using sudo, etc 12:39 -!- fcrippa [n=fcrippa@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:39 < Sparks> Locking down partitions... 12:39 < quaid> and rather than telling them how, make a version that does it automatically 12:39 < Sparks> I could go on and on... I'm only in chapter 2 of the DoD guide I'm using to harden three Fedora boxes right now and I was surprised at how much stuff there is. 12:39 < quaid> it sounds like a spin, to me 12:39 < Sparks> Well, I'd say do both. 12:40 < quaid> bunch of %post scripts? 12:40 < quaid> well, ok, see, here is where this is on topic for Docs 12:40 < quaid> we've historically 12:40 < quaid> had a narrow vision and mission 12:40 < quaid> but have widened over time 12:40 < quaid> and like the rest of Fedora Project proper 12:40 < quaid> we can expand to be upstream of content 12:40 < quaid> and do big guides, etc. 12:41 < Sparks> Hmmm.... The DoD has a script that runs and tells you what is wrong with your system but I haven't seen one that will fix everything for you because you don't know what setting will break an existing system. 12:41 * quaid wonders where bastion-linux is these days 12:41 * Sparks sees this as a possible big guide 12:42 < quaid> Sparks: well, look at the content in the RHEL 5 Deployment Guide, see what you would re-use in such a Security Guide if oyu had it 12:43 < Sparks> Maybe it is just me but I read my logs every morning to see what's been going on. I don't know if most people do that or not but if they do then they are probably a little concernes with security. 12:43 * Sparks looks for the Deployment guide. 12:43 < quaid> start at rh.com/docs 12:43 < Sparks> Got it 12:43 < quaid> logwatch++ too 12:43 < Sparks> :) 12:44 * quaid meant Bastille Linux but had a brain frack 12:44 -!- smooge [n=smooge@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["-ENOCAFFEINE"] 12:45 < Southern_Gentlem> most admins consider tcpwrappers as a last resort 12:45 < Sparks> But it is the dumb things, like not using IPv6 but having it running, that allow an attacker to gain access to the system because of the default settings. 12:45 < Southern_Gentlem> Sparks, explain that 12:45 < quaid> Sparks: the IPv6 setting sounds like a bug or an f-devel-l discussion 12:46 < Southern_Gentlem> Sparks, if there network doesnt support ip6 how are they at risk 12:47 < Sparks> The IPv6 thing is *unix wide 12:47 < Southern_Gentlem> no not all networks support ipv6 12:47 < Sparks> Because IPv6 allows for autoconfiguration and allows an attack vector to the networking stack. 12:48 < Sparks> true, however if you are using newer equipment (like a new switch) you have an attack vector because a lot of network switches will pass it along with the IPv4 packet. 12:49 < Southern_Gentlem> but i am talking on old switches which are still out there in force 12:49 < Sparks> You have a mitigating factor if your WAN connection doesn't support IPv6. This wouldn't be so much of a problem for a home user. 12:49 < Southern_Gentlem> guess what? thats your main audience in fedora 12:49 < Sparks> But if Fedora was deployed in a larger setting then you could have a problem. 12:50 < Sparks> guess what, you don't know where Fedora is and what it is being used for. 12:50 < Sparks> I'm not saying that everyone should follow everything in the book, I'm saying that they should know where the information is and know how to use the information if they deem it necessary to secure their box. 12:51 < Sparks> I know of places where Fedora is used in a more... enterprise setting. 12:52 < Sparks> Not a problem. I talked with the sysadmin and made sure he knew what docs he needed to consult so he could secure his system. 12:53 < Sparks> Anyway, the IPv6 thing was only an example. There are lots of settings for passwords and using AIDE and securing your SSH that would be useful to most users, IMO. 12:55 < quaid> ok, I think we have wandered afar enough :) 12:55 * quaid is back from a distraction 12:56 < quaid> I'll trim back a bit and send out both logs asap 12:56 < quaid> anything else? 12:56 -!- JSchmitt [n=s4504kr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:56 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsma@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:56 < Sparks> Nothing here 12:56 -!- fbijlsma [n=fbijlsma@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 12:57 < Sparks> Where did jsmith go? 12:57 < quaid> ok 12:57 < quaid> </meeting>
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