Mar 05 22:02:00 <quaid> <meeting> Mar 05 22:02:09 * jsmith is here (Jared Smith) Mar 05 22:02:13 <quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda Mar 05 22:02:18 <quaid> <-- Karsten Wade Mar 05 22:02:21 <jmbuser> John Babich Mar 05 22:02:29 <EvilBob> <-- Bob Jensen Mar 05 22:03:06 * quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo meeting - Agenda http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda --- Current Topic ::: Acccess to wiki and Docs content; what belongs there Mar 05 22:03:58 <BobJensen> <-- BobJensen Mar 05 22:04:11 <quaid> stickster is Paul and he is here too Mar 05 22:04:38 * stickster can't keep up with all the usage patterns for meeting roll call :-D Mar 05 22:04:49 <quaid> first point, I'm not caught up on last week -- I didn't see a summary Mar 05 22:05:14 <EvilBob> we have a new vice chair Mar 05 22:05:16 <quaid> but the first agenda item seems new and relevant Mar 05 22:05:16 <jsmith> We elected a vice chair Mar 05 22:05:22 <quaid> great! who? Mar 05 22:05:23 <quaid> :D Mar 05 22:05:29 <EvilBob> jmbuser Mar 05 22:05:32 <jsmith> jmbuser Mar 05 22:05:34 * quaid voted by proxy, hopefully Mar 05 22:05:40 <quaid> jmbuser: congrats, and more so, thanks! Mar 05 22:05:45 <EvilBob> nope we did not need your vote Mar 05 22:05:45 <jmbuser> The guy who didn't do a summary Mar 05 22:05:47 <jsmith> quaid: We had you down for voting for yourself Mar 05 22:05:56 <jmbuser> quaidL Thanks Mar 05 22:06:16 * quaid finishes the old business before moving on ... sorry for the topic delay Mar 05 22:06:21 <EvilBob> 4 of the 5 present voted Mar 05 22:06:27 <quaid> jmbuser: do you want to try to tackle a summary this week? Mar 05 22:06:37 <jmbuser> quaid: Yes, I will Mar 05 22:06:47 <quaid> it is in fact useful for getting your hands around what is going on, and also I like it because "whoever writes history, defines history" :) Mar 05 22:06:55 <quaid> k Mar 05 22:07:12 <stickster> jmbuser: Also it's pretty important for establishing action items. Who owns an item? That way we can point fingers later. Mar 05 22:07:21 <quaid> word Mar 05 22:07:23 <jmbuser> _1 Mar 05 22:07:25 <jmbuser> +1 Mar 05 22:07:46 <quaid> ok, so back to the /topic Mar 05 22:07:46 <stickster> jmbuser: Summarizing as we go, if you can't tell, speak up and we'll make sure it's assigned Mar 05 22:07:48 * stickster shuts up Mar 05 22:08:04 <jmbuser> stickster: ok Mar 05 22:08:05 <quaid> as it happens we were discussing the CLA and wiki mess over on #fedora-admin Mar 05 22:08:20 <quaid> but it is the clear goal to enable people Mar 05 22:08:28 <quaid> to "sign up, agree, and edit" in one go Mar 05 22:08:37 <jmbuser> stickster is on record Mar 05 22:08:50 <quaid> so we are looking at a new era, where e.g. #fedora helpers will be encouraged to use the wiki, etc. Mar 05 22:09:30 <quaid> what role does Fedora Docs have in that? Mar 05 22:09:54 * quaid knows his opinion but ... what is yours? Mar 05 22:11:23 <jmbuser> I summarized my opinions in my contribution to the wiki gardening page Mar 05 22:11:39 * couf here finally Mar 05 22:11:45 <quaid> moin couf Mar 05 22:12:14 <jmbuser> Briefly, the wiki is good for collaboraive, store-and-forward writing Mar 05 22:12:38 <jmbuser> Things like draft docs and the Fedora Weekly news.... Mar 05 22:12:43 * EvilBob 's Day Care is open today... kinda busy Mar 05 22:13:06 <jmbuser> including capturing Release Notes beats Mar 05 22:13:14 <quaid> one challenge I see is the WikiEditing is crucial to understand, and freaking LONG Mar 05 22:13:42 <jmbuser> quaid: The page itself? Mar 05 22:13:42 <quaid> and another is picking and enforcing namespace conventions Mar 05 22:13:55 <quaid> should people put stuff under Docs/? or under Content_Area/? Mar 05 22:14:00 <quaid> jmbuser: yes Mar 05 22:14:48 * jpuellma (n=jpuellma@xxxxxxxxxxxx) has left #fedora-meeting ("Cheese it!") Mar 05 22:15:12 <jmbuser> quaid: good question Mar 05 22:15:24 <couf> we might want to create a "short article", draft real docs, faqs, ... sections in Docs/ Mar 05 22:15:38 <quaid> we were just talking about that the other day Mar 05 22:15:39 <couf> or try to move documenation over to docs.fp.o in a wiki ;-) Mar 05 22:15:44 <stickster> quaid: Do you mean, where should people put random information that doesn't fit into a project? Mar 05 22:15:53 <quaid> stickster: sort of Mar 05 22:16:00 <quaid> stickster: project info == people who work on a project use that Mar 05 22:16:18 <quaid> content area == all that random useful stuff that isn't for the project workers, but might be about the project subject Mar 05 22:16:23 <quaid> so e.g. Kernel Mar 05 22:16:32 <quaid> do we have /Kernel == only kernel maintainers Mar 05 22:16:39 <quaid> or is that for "how to do kernel shite" Mar 05 22:16:41 <quaid> or both? Mar 05 22:17:06 <quaid> and if it is how-to, should we have all that under Docs/ ? Mar 05 22:17:22 <quaid> so, what Bob and I discussed the other day was an NVR style of path Mar 05 22:17:40 <jsmith> NVR? Mar 05 22:17:46 <quaid> like a package Mar 05 22:17:47 <stickster> Name version release Mar 05 22:17:49 <jsmith> Ah, gotcha Mar 05 22:17:54 <quaid> so Mar 05 22:17:55 <jmbuser> we had someone ask where the F9 docs are kept, indicating that it's less than clear Mar 05 22:18:03 <jmbuser> NVR would help Mar 05 22:18:11 <quaid> Docs/9/Virt/How-To Mar 05 22:18:36 * stickster thinks about how ill-suited wiki is to this level of organization, compared to foldering on CMS Mar 05 22:18:41 <quaid> where is evilbob when I need his rememory! :) Mar 05 22:18:53 <quaid> stickster: meh, we do what we have to :) Mar 05 22:19:15 <EvilBob> stickster: Oh I agree Mar 05 22:19:18 <jsmith> Ah, the joys and pains of content management Mar 05 22:19:19 <couf> stickster: +1 Mar 05 22:19:19 <quaid> we don't want these: Docs/How-To/Virt; Mar 05 22:19:19 <stickster> If we're using MW for this in the future, let's think ahead to how we can make use of its capabilities to do this. Mar 05 22:19:26 <quaid> EvilBob: did I get that example in the right order? Mar 05 22:19:30 <EvilBob> stickster: but lets not get me barking up that tired old tree again Mar 05 22:19:35 * jsmith things we need a completely new paradigm Mar 05 22:19:52 <jmbuser> MW = MediaWiki? Mar 05 22:19:59 <EvilBob> stickster: that is where my question started Mar 05 22:20:09 <stickster> a great mind... Mar 05 22:20:10 <stickster> jmbuser: +1 Mar 05 22:20:14 <EvilBob> stickster: how does what we have now translate to MW Mar 05 22:20:23 <quaid> couf: so this is trying to answer your point; organize by content-type, version, then method of presentation (article, how-to, faq) Mar 05 22:20:41 <EvilBob> stickster: so we started thinking about fixing what we got Mar 05 22:20:45 <EvilBob> got Mar 05 22:20:49 <EvilBob> I hate that word Mar 05 22:20:52 <quaid> have Mar 05 22:20:55 <EvilBob> have Mar 05 22:20:59 <quaid> jinx! Mar 05 22:21:33 * fabian_a (n=fabian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 05 22:21:45 <EvilBob> stickster: IMO we need more input from mmcgrath and the others about how things will transition Mar 05 22:21:58 <stickster> EvilBob: That's not really a blocker for organization, though. Mar 05 22:22:11 <stickster> Let's think about how we can better categorize the content we have Mar 05 22:22:13 <jmbuser> The top-down approach is good for the people having to organize the wiki...and search lets people just find it Mar 05 22:22:30 <EvilBob> stickster: well it is if all pages end up looking like they are in a single directory Mar 05 22:22:50 <stickster> EvilBob: Nah, the search takes care of a lot of that problem. Mar 05 22:23:00 <stickster> The depth of the structure is irrelevant. Mar 05 22:23:03 <jmbuser> Best of both worlds Mar 05 22:23:07 <stickster> Problem is, moin search sucks. Mar 05 22:23:14 <EvilBob> Moin sucks Mar 05 22:23:17 <stickster> If you know a page title, you can find the page fast. Mar 05 22:23:25 <stickster> EvilBob: No one's making you bark, simmer down ;-D Mar 05 22:23:35 <EvilBob> we have said that for a long time, it is irrelevant Mar 05 22:23:40 <stickster> If you know some content, you can find the page if you're willing to wait an eternity. Mar 05 22:23:57 <stickster> MW solves both those problems with a full-text index that actually works. Mar 05 22:23:59 <EvilBob> yup Mar 05 22:24:08 <EvilBob> WIN! Mar 05 22:24:23 <jmbuser> Thn there are always external search engines - make sure the wiki get searched thoroughly by bots Mar 05 22:24:33 <jmbuser> s/Thn /Then / Mar 05 22:24:34 <quaid> jmbuser: +1 about the top-down approach; we need to enable an army of wiki watchers to help us out Mar 05 22:24:34 <stickster> So, we don't need to worry inordinately about calling things by some long hierarchical title like "Releases/12/ProjectFoo/DoingThis/DoingThat" Mar 05 22:24:51 <EvilBob> stickster: so my thought was, lets start sorting, fixing, moving what we have in to some sort of sane dirctory like organization Mar 05 22:25:00 <quaid> and the opposite has just been said .... Mar 05 22:25:02 <quaid> fight! Mar 05 22:25:38 <quaid> stickster: is it just my sense of order that is afronted? Because I think random page names like Fedora12VirtQuickStart sort of suck Mar 05 22:25:57 <stickster> The names suck, but you're thinking of a world where the name matters Mar 05 22:26:02 <EvilBob> now in some parts of the wiki because there is not organization there are things duplicated Mar 05 22:26:07 <quaid> and from a management standpoint, how do i know when there are holes in content without some tree to look around Mar 05 22:26:16 <stickster> Categorizing by search fixes all Mar 05 22:26:22 <EvilBob> and the info is not the same Mar 05 22:26:27 <quaid> EvilBob: +1 Mar 05 22:26:42 <stickster> If you can't find it in an FTI, it needs writing. If you find it twice, collate and reduce Mar 05 22:26:51 <stickster> s/an FTI/a FTI/ Mar 05 22:26:52 <EvilBob> some is better, some is not so good, neither can be obsolited because they are in different areas Mar 05 22:27:18 <stickster> Also, MW will tell you what pages reference other pages. Mar 05 22:27:26 <stickster> Another lovely function that Moin doesn't offer. Mar 05 22:27:36 <stickster> Well, least not from what I've seen. Mar 05 22:27:56 <stickster> So I can ask MW, "Hey MW, what pages reference Fedora12VirtQuickStart?" Mar 05 22:28:00 <stickster> Makes cleaning a lot easier. Mar 05 22:28:11 <EvilBob> the Packaging and contributing pages of the wiki are a ... mess Mar 05 22:28:16 <jmbuser> stickster: good feature Mar 05 22:28:28 <EvilBob> and there is some AWESOME content there Mar 05 22:28:28 <stickster> EvilBob: Let's finish the discussion of the organizing vs. not organizing first. Mar 05 22:28:40 <EvilBob> stickster: it is an example Mar 05 22:28:41 <stickster> By which I mean, I think I'm winning, fight back! Mar 05 22:28:44 <stickster> :-D Mar 05 22:28:58 * stickster puts on that cool Star Trek fight music Mar 05 22:29:01 <EvilBob> well I don't care Mar 05 22:29:06 <stickster> Well that's no fun then. Mar 05 22:29:13 <stickster> quaid? Mar 05 22:29:13 <stickster> couf? Mar 05 22:29:16 <quaid> stickster: so you maintain ... Mar 05 22:29:17 <stickster> WHO WILL FACE ME?!? Mar 05 22:29:23 <quaid> that namespace does not matter _at_all_? Mar 05 22:29:27 * couf needs to run, sorry guys Mar 05 22:29:35 <jmbuser> stcikster IS Captain Kirk Mar 05 22:29:42 <stickster> hahaha Mar 05 22:29:51 <jmbuser> Where's SPock? Mar 05 22:29:54 * stickster is totally just another bum, please feel free to take him down several pegs Mar 05 22:30:09 <quaid> http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eFdUSnaQM Mar 05 22:30:12 <stickster> quaid: I say, take a look at wikipedia Mar 05 22:30:12 <EvilBob> it can either get organized so people can find stuff or we can go back to the same old same, the wiki sucks we can't find what we need and when we do find something there are 15 pages that say the same thing Mar 05 22:30:13 <quaid> Worst Fight Scene Ever Mar 05 22:30:28 <stickster> quaid: YES!!! Mar 05 22:30:45 * JSchmitt (n=s4504kr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 05 22:31:03 <quaid> stickster: not sure if Wikipedia is a good reference or not Mar 05 22:31:09 <quaid> it is a flat namespace, but I figured that is from necessity Mar 05 22:31:14 <EvilBob> if the name space does not matter that is fine, I will shut up about it Mar 05 22:31:20 <quaid> wikipedia is a thousand miles wide and 2 inches deep Mar 05 22:31:23 <stickster> right, no subject is more important than any other on wikipedia Mar 05 22:31:23 <jsmith> My personal opinion is that no matter what we decide, the law of entropy will get us unless we make it hard not to do the right thing ;-) Mar 05 22:31:26 <quaid> where we are one mile wide and ten miles deep Mar 05 22:31:57 <quaid> jsmith: ninja robots attach you if you don't subscribe to a page you own? Mar 05 22:32:02 <stickster> I think jsmith has a very good point Mar 05 22:32:10 <stickster> I am not saying that hierarchies are by definition a bad thing. Mar 05 22:32:25 <jsmith> Whether it's a wiki or a CMS, you've gotta make it easy to do the right thing Mar 05 22:32:25 <stickster> I think that pages will tend to accumulate in flat namespace. Mar 05 22:32:40 <quaid> have they? Mar 05 22:32:50 <stickster> Pretty surely Mar 05 22:32:59 <stickster> ("Don't call me surely.") Mar 05 22:32:59 <quaid> mmcgrath: you about? any idea if more pages use flat namespace or moin-pseudo-hierarchy? Mar 05 22:33:01 * EvilBob has other things to do for Fedora than just thinking about the wiki, just was looking for something else I could do. Mar 05 22:33:06 <quaid> stickster: nor pretty Mar 05 22:33:11 <quaid> EvilBob: hey! Mar 05 22:33:11 * bo09 (n=bo09@nat/redhat/x-a14e2d8bf802b3b6) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 05 22:33:22 <mmcgrath> quaid: yeah Mar 05 22:33:34 <quaid> EvilBob: we just need to sort out which is the right thing to spend our time on in fixing the freaking wiki Mar 05 22:33:52 <mmcgrath> whats the difference between flat namespace and moin-pseudo-hierarchy? Mar 05 22:33:55 <quaid> well Mar 05 22:34:08 <quaid> flat namespace is like: Fedora9VirtQuickStart Mar 05 22:34:23 <quaid> pseudo-hierarchy is: Docs/9/Virt/QuickStart Mar 05 22:34:38 <mmcgrath> oh Mar 05 22:34:38 <quaid> so ... SELinux/FAQ is a non-flat usage Mar 05 22:34:50 <mmcgrath> we have a good mix of both though I think most teams do pseudo-hierarchy. Mar 05 22:34:55 <quaid> I say psuedo because I don't think Moin actually organizes in folders, right? Mar 05 22:35:00 <stickster> I think we're going to see mainly one folder deep Mar 05 22:35:01 <EvilBob> quaid: Oh I agree, but fixing content is not an option when I (and the users) don't even know what content there is the way things are now Mar 05 22:35:37 <quaid> I was contemplating a massive help in pushing to MW right after FAS2 rolls out Mar 05 22:35:52 <quaid> and then resolving this more on the other side, once we know the new scope Mar 05 22:36:15 <quaid> so, we might not need to fix names as much as use search to find duplicate content, merge, etc. like Paul said Mar 05 22:36:17 <stickster> quaid: I think that's the right plan if we're just a short way from it Mar 05 22:36:18 <EvilBob> quaid: I agree with Paul that we need to look at what we will want to have once FAS2 and MW are a reality Mar 05 22:36:33 <stickster> It looks like both are close Mar 05 22:36:33 <quaid> there is also a secondary question on the table: Mar 05 22:36:35 <jsmith> Some days, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth burning it all and starting over. Give people a time to move the relevant content (from Moin to MW), and burn the rest. You know, like the same way you cleaned out the fridge in college. Mar 05 22:36:45 <quaid> do we want a separate Docs/ namespace? something that is just Fedora Docs? Mar 05 22:36:50 <EvilBob> my problem is that when I search I get proxy errors Mar 05 22:36:56 <quaid> or do we want to merge that up a layer, the idea being -- hey it's a wiki, it's docs already Mar 05 22:36:58 <stickster> quaid: I think that may actually be a hindrance Mar 05 22:37:02 <stickster> quaid: +1 Mar 05 22:37:16 <stickster> We just draft in the appropriate space and let people go where they may. Mar 05 22:37:25 <EvilBob> so the wiki is worthless unless we start fixing things now even if it is on a small scale and focused Mar 05 22:37:31 <stickster> It couldn't be any worse uptake than right now -- meaning, we have Docs people who will work on it wherever it sits. Mar 05 22:37:38 <quaid> right, so it's all project or content areas, with content area being everything from "FixingVideoProblems" to "KernelHacks" Mar 05 22:37:50 <jmbuser> Has anyone found a good example of a well-organized wiki? - Maybe we should look around for a role model Mar 05 22:37:52 <stickster> quaid: + Mar 05 22:37:55 <stickster> +1 Mar 05 22:38:03 <quaid> do we even want the concept of a Draft namespace within? Mar 05 22:38:12 <quaid> e.g. Virt/Draft/Foo that moves to Virt/Foo? Mar 05 22:38:18 <EvilBob> Draft no Mar 05 22:38:29 <EvilBob> Virt/Foo/Draft Mar 05 22:38:31 <quaid> or is a wiki, by definition, one big clusterdraft? Mar 05 22:38:33 <EvilBob> Virt/Foo/8 Mar 05 22:38:34 <stickster> I've come to think without a CMS and workflow, it's somewhat meaningless. Mar 05 22:38:36 <EvilBob> Virt/Foo/9 Mar 05 22:38:39 <EvilBob> Virt/Foo/7 Mar 05 22:38:46 <stickster> +1 to "everything's a draft." Mar 05 22:39:05 <jsmith> stickster: +1 Mar 05 22:39:07 <quaid> "a wiki is one big clusterdraft" Mar 05 22:39:12 <stickster> :-D Mar 05 22:39:12 <quaid> that's my next t-shirt Mar 05 22:39:24 <jmbuser> It's a draft until it's checked into CVS and converted to DocBook XML Mar 05 22:39:36 <EvilBob> Mine says "you're stupid" Mar 05 22:39:39 <stickster> *ding ding ding* Mar 05 22:39:40 <EvilBob> not you Mar 05 22:39:43 <jmbuser> then published on a web site Mar 05 22:39:45 <EvilBob> but others Mar 05 22:39:54 <quaid> EvilBob: riiiight ... :) Mar 05 22:40:12 <EvilBob> I think "draft" space has a place in the wiki Mar 05 22:40:28 * stickster thinks '|| This is a draft ||' accomplishes that Mar 05 22:40:33 <quaid> stickster: how do you envision versioning differences? Mar 05 22:40:36 <EvilBob> even if it is only used as a scratch pad for the next release Mar 05 22:40:54 <quaid> one reason I like the version in a title/namespace is we can search for old shit to either mark as deprecated, update, or remove Mar 05 22:40:56 <EvilBob> A rolling scratch pad from release to release Mar 05 22:41:06 * quaid is having a very hard time not swearing this morning, sorry :) Mar 05 22:41:13 <EvilBob> quaid: +1 Mar 05 22:41:40 <stickster> quaid: I think categories can take care of that nicely. We should be more freewheeling about them and use them like tags Mar 05 22:41:56 <EvilBob> stickster: +1 Mar 05 22:41:58 <jmbuser> stickster: +1 Mar 05 22:41:59 * quaid goes to look at wtf MW does about that Mar 05 22:42:04 <EvilBob> stickster: in the long run yes Mar 05 22:42:21 * JSchmitt has quit ("Konversation terminated!") Mar 05 22:42:25 <EvilBob> stickster: but that does not fix today, or tomorrow Mar 05 22:42:40 <EvilBob> we still have moin moin for a little while Mar 05 22:42:46 <stickster> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Categories Mar 05 22:43:14 <stickster> EvilBob: Tomorrow may be closer than you think. Mar 05 22:43:22 <EvilBob> I think we need to work on some of these gardening ideas before the migration so we have a better product after Mar 05 22:43:44 <stickster> I think if we start framing it like a product, we're losing. Mar 05 22:44:01 <quaid> EvilBob: I'm worried about us wasting time in moving content if it just won't matter Mar 05 22:44:30 <quaid> e.g. we could be taking that time to put stuff in categories later, thereby getting the effect we want but in the freaking database of MW instead of trapped in CategoryFooBarBaz tags in Moin Mar 05 22:44:42 <stickster> quaid: disco Mar 05 22:44:55 * RenaultR83 has quit (Connection timed out) Mar 05 22:45:03 * RenaultR83 (n=couretca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 05 22:45:06 <stickster> My personal feeling is that the right place to spend time is polishing the DUG and AG, getting them out of the way so work can progress on other areas like the GIG. Mar 05 22:45:06 <quaid> mmcgrath: does the Moin to MW migration scriptie cover the CategoryFoo stuff for tagging the resultant pages? Mar 05 22:45:24 <mmcgrath> Not sure, I'd bet it doesn't. Mar 05 22:45:35 <mmcgrath> I've got a script I'm working on and daMaestro is looking into one as well. Mar 05 22:45:37 <quaid> are you building on an existing script? Mar 05 22:45:41 <quaid> ah, ok Mar 05 22:45:51 <mmcgrath> yeah, I can get a copy to you. Mar 05 22:46:05 <BobJensen> Evil Bob got split Mar 05 22:46:06 <mmcgrath> I'm not sure what license it is released under, I've contacted the author. Mar 05 22:46:23 <quaid> we could use the old wiki in r-o mode for a while to do some of that; pull up pages by Category then tag the MW version;b ut that is a pita it seems we could automate? Mar 05 22:46:41 <mmcgrath> Yeah I was going to leave up for a couple of months at least in some sort of RO fashion. Mar 05 22:46:51 <BobJensen> there is some bad lag Mar 05 22:46:56 <quaid> how much time do we want to spend on the automation of migration? Mar 05 22:47:05 <quaid> ok, let me summarize so far if I can: Mar 05 22:47:10 <stickster> quaid: I think automating that seems pretty easy. Mar 05 22:47:35 <mmcgrath> quaid: it depends on what we want out of mediawiki. There's some bits I have in the "need" column right now (like proper table migration) Mar 05 22:47:36 <quaid> * namespaces probably don't matter as much in MW; stickster argues that full text index is our friend there, as well as other MW features to find and merge content Mar 05 22:47:55 <EvilBob> stickster: I hope that tomorrow comes very very fast Mar 05 22:48:07 <stickster> quaid: And keep in mind that "namespaces" have a particular meaning in MW, i.e. they are a feature Mar 05 22:48:15 <quaid> * we need this sorted out before F9 drops or we'll have the same mess as usual Mar 05 22:48:36 <stickster> i.e. Special:, Help:, Main:, Template:, et al. Mar 05 22:48:46 <quaid> * the goal is to enable maintainers as well as contributors to be effective, easily and early Mar 05 22:48:59 <quaid> * eradicated Docs and Draft namespaces makes sense; the whole wiki == docs Mar 05 22:49:08 <quaid> stickster: oh, yeah ... Mar 05 22:49:31 <stickster> The biggest barrier to more wiki-based content right now is (1) the inefficiency of Moin, and (2) the CLA mes. Mar 05 22:49:32 <quaid> * project_area and content_area should be good enough Mar 05 22:49:33 <stickster> *mess. Mar 05 22:49:46 <jsmith> Does it still make sense to have a Docs namespace for things like Wiki to Docbook conversion, etc? Mar 05 22:49:56 <stickster> I am trying to fix 2, and Mike et al. are trying to fix 1. Mar 05 22:50:05 <quaid> * we need to assess (quickly!) what we can do to make the MW migration fastest and bestest, then do it and move on Mar 05 22:50:14 <EvilBob> jsmith: DocumentationProject Mar 05 22:50:17 <stickster> jsmith: Maybe we could categorize those too, i.e. Category:SCMControlled Mar 05 22:50:18 <quaid> jsmith: that's docsProject Mar 05 22:50:22 <quaid> EvilBob: :) Mar 05 22:50:23 <EvilBob> jsmith: ok Mar 05 22:50:27 <EvilBob> oops Mar 05 22:50:44 <EvilBob> Docs/ is end user content Mar 05 22:50:46 <jsmith> Gotcha... Mar 05 22:50:49 <stickster> jsmith: Oh wait, I think I answered the wrong question, nvm Mar 05 22:51:00 * jsmith finally makes the connection Mar 05 22:51:06 <stickster> EvilBob: If we even keep Docs/ Mar 05 22:51:13 <quaid> right, perfect example of the confusion of having Docs/ Mar 05 22:51:16 <stickster> Which I think is unnecessary Mar 05 22:51:22 <stickster> It's here, it's docs. Mar 05 22:51:24 <quaid> stickster: I summarized above that we drop it Mar 05 22:51:27 <stickster> Yup Mar 05 22:51:29 <EvilBob> stickster: I am with you there Mar 05 22:51:31 <quaid> * </summary>? Mar 05 22:51:45 <stickster> Sure Mar 05 22:51:51 <quaid> oh, right, final point: Mar 05 22:51:54 <EvilBob> I am not disagreeing that we need to clean things up Mar 05 22:52:09 <EvilBob> oh wait that was my whole point... Mar 05 22:52:14 <quaid> * focus on DUG/AG then GIG while mmcgrath does MW planning; help with that; then be prepared to gang on the migration to make it happen in time Mar 05 22:52:20 <quaid> time == by 15 April? Mar 05 22:52:39 <jsmith> Sounds fair Mar 05 22:52:39 <stickster> Set action items for the DUG/AG. Mar 05 22:52:42 <EvilBob> stickster: want to know my fear? Mar 05 22:52:45 <quaid> EvilBob: I think the point is, any effort at clean-up at this point is like sweeping the building before we implode it Mar 05 22:53:04 <stickster> The only way the DUG/AG cleanup is going to happen is by people having clear assignments. Mar 05 22:53:04 <quaid> maybe not "any" but "much" Mar 05 22:53:11 <EvilBob> stickster: that the migration might take all pages and make them /laststring Mar 05 22:53:28 <quaid> /laststring? Mar 05 22:53:28 <stickster> EvilBob: Mike can take care of that. Mar 05 22:53:32 <stickster> quaid: As in Releases/9/FooBar ==> newwiki/FooBar Mar 05 22:53:33 <EvilBob> stickster: then we have 85 GettingStarted Mar 05 22:53:45 * quaid has changed the topic to: FDSCo -- DUG/AG assignments and planning Mar 05 22:53:50 <stickster> EvilBob: mmcgrath et al. will ensure that doesn't happen. Mar 05 22:53:54 <quaid> I think we need to get this one tackled before the meeting is over Mar 05 22:54:05 <stickster> That's a pretty simple requirement for them to test. Mar 05 22:54:13 <stickster> quaid: +10. Mar 05 22:54:16 <quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide Mar 05 22:54:21 <quaid> that is ready for us to volunteer Mar 05 22:54:37 <quaid> folks here, we all need to grab at least one of those chapters to help wordsmith/stylsmith Mar 05 22:54:41 <stickster> How many people here are going to help get these things done, Finally? Mar 05 22:54:46 <EvilBob> stickster: even Releases/9/FooBar ==> newwiki/Releases9FooBar is fine by me Mar 05 22:54:46 <jsmith> quaid: I volunteered last week to help with the Wiki to DocBook conversion, as long as everybody is happy with what I did with the SMG Mar 05 22:54:53 <stickster> EvilBob: moving on Mar 05 22:54:58 <jmbuser> I need to do a final sweep Mar 05 22:55:16 <jsmith> quaid: But since I haven't received any feedback on the SMG, I'm hesitant to tackle another project without making sure I did the last one right Mar 05 22:55:18 <stickster> jsmith: You asked me, among others, to look at your work, and I haven't, apologies Mar 05 22:55:26 * EvilBob has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 05 22:55:36 <stickster> Aiiieee! netsplit killed EvilBob! Mar 05 22:55:39 <jmbuser> of the DUG for typos and continuity of style Mar 05 22:55:48 <BobJensen> Sorry about that, lag got evilbob Mar 05 22:56:01 <BobJensen> I was way behind in the conversation Mar 05 22:56:14 <jmbuser> also the SMG, as I promised Mar 05 22:56:21 <quaid> is it in CVS? Mar 05 22:56:27 <quaid> that was my criteria, iirc Mar 05 22:56:40 <quaid> so we could commit edits, etc. to cross-learn, etc. Mar 05 22:56:48 <quaid> if it's not, let's do that right now after the meeting Mar 05 22:56:48 <jsmith> The SMG is in CVS, yes Mar 05 22:56:52 <quaid> sweet Mar 05 22:57:05 <jsmith> It's still in the yum-software-management directory, but it's in CVS Mar 05 22:57:13 <jsmith> IT's been in CVS for about three weeks or so now Mar 05 22:57:48 * quaid shamefaced Mar 05 22:57:59 <quaid> ok, #fedora-docs to sort that out Mar 05 22:58:01 <quaid> oic Mar 05 22:58:40 * nim-nim has quit ("Leaving.") Mar 05 22:58:47 <BobJensen> I will be away for the rest of the meeting, I can't get Evilbob connected and I can't leave these kids alone Mar 05 22:59:07 <quaid> BobJensen: you good :) Mar 05 22:59:15 <jsmith> BobJensen: Fair enough... we'll cover for you (and I'll take over making snarky remarks on your behalf) Mar 05 22:59:21 <quaid> I sent a note to the list to gang up on the DUG Mar 05 22:59:44 * nim-nim (n=nim-nim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 05 22:59:47 * quaid has changed the topic to: relnotes one sheet Mar 05 22:59:56 <quaid> ... which looks good so far; getting more attention Mar 05 23:00:04 <quaid> we can later parse some of that back into the Beats Mar 05 23:00:16 <quaid> speaking of beats ... Mar 05 23:00:36 <quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#head-eaf64a312f930169fedfde4ebcb34a27527685b9 Mar 05 23:00:50 <quaid> Paul and I met this weekend, and that schedule is basically accurate for here on out Mar 05 23:01:15 <quaid> so we have an upcoming 16 March wiki freeze Mar 05 23:01:41 <quaid> anything more on either of those topics? Mar 05 23:01:51 <quaid> otherwise we can close and vacate the channel back to #fedora-docs ... Mar 05 23:02:43 <quaid> closing in 10 Mar 05 23:02:48 <quaid> 5 Mar 05 23:02:49 <quaid> 4 Mar 05 23:02:50 <quaid> 3 Mar 05 23:02:51 <quaid> 2 Mar 05 23:02:51 <quaid> 1 Mar 05 23:02:54 <quaid> </meeting> -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list@xxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list
