12:09 < stickster> <meeting> 12:09 < stickster> We have two agenda items, then on to AOB. 12:09 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Meetings 12:09 < stickster> (shorter URL link, redirects to canonical page) 12:10 < stickster> The first thing up is a Docs status report for F8, let's let couf and jmbuser elaborate 12:10 < EvilBob> BobJensen 12:10 < stickster> Hi BobJensen! 12:10 < couf> AG is shaping up to become something decent 12:10 < couf> it's come a long way 12:11 < jmbuser> +1 12:11 < stickster> There's quite a bit of new material there, kudos! 12:11 < couf> we were going to convert to cvs yesterday but due to some bad schedules we missed that 12:12 < couf> I'm going to let it in the wiki for 1 more week before doing the conversion 12:12 < stickster> Did you guys arrive at a consensus for doing CVS conversion? Is that going to hamper contribution at all? 12:12 < couf> we're going to try and keep it in cvs then 12:12 < couf> it's a testcase 12:12 < couf> if it doesn't work out, well then it's back to the wiki 12:13 < stickster> I note that there's very little in the AG about the standard GUI toolset (System > Administration > [...]) 12:13 < couf> right, good point 12:14 < couf> I'm writing up something for the list to digest, points to consider, ... 12:14 < stickster> Sure... People can add comments to the list traffic then 12:15 < stickster> I would like to see the Guide do more along the lines of solving the simple use cases before it goes into tremendous detail about the ins and outs of config files. 12:16 < couf> the thing is, people tend to find administration complicated and want to read more then they can really use 12:16 < stickster> For instance, Users: 1. Adding a User; 2. Deleting a User; 3. Adding a Group; 4. Deleting a Group; 5. Modifying a User's Group Membership; 6. User Private Groups; 7. .... 12:16 < couf> I feel that's reflected in the current state 12:17 < stickster> Right, so to me *de-emphasizing* the complicated stuff, or pushing it later in a chapter, makes more sense 12:17 < stickster> Start small, build the skill as the chapter goes along 12:17 < couf> right 12:17 < jmbuser> Agree 12:17 < EvilBob> IMO for every "Guide" there is also room for a "Quick Start" 12:18 < stickster> EvilBob: Sure, I feel that each chapter/topic is really best served up as a quick start, then a slightly less-quick start, then a slow deep dive 12:18 < EvilBob> yup 12:18 < couf> so that's an important part of my to-the-list message 12:18 < stickster> If you look at the goal of any document as a skill-building tool, then you have to start with the most fundamental, elementary skills, then build on them 12:19 < stickster> couf: Great, we can delve into this more on-lis then 12:19 < stickster> *on-list 12:20 < stickster> couf: As the leader for that doc, you should feel free to encourage the writers to follow your blueprint ideas 12:20 < couf> yeah, just noting: I probably won't be around for the rest off the week so if someone could help and follow-up in my place, that would be great 12:20 < stickster> Let's also not forget that our deadline here is self-imposed -- so if we need an extra week or two, it's there. 12:21 < stickster> jmbuser: Want to talk about the DUG? I know we had a few contributors pop up to help. 12:21 < jmbuser> Yes, great to have the help...thanks to Marc and, just recently, Dan 12:22 < jmbuser> Even had a few edits today 12:22 < stickster> jmbuser: There was a John Wess on the list too, who seemed keen on helping 12:23 < stickster> Looks like he's got edit rights now, too 12:23 < jmbuser> yes, I need to see if I made contact with him yet 12:23 < stickster> Side note to all: 12:23 < jmbuser> I got generous with the approvals recently :-) 12:23 < stickster> This is always the most fertile time for getting contributors -- right after a new release 12:24 < stickster> The quicker we can grab onto those contributors and get them started, the more likely they'll stick around and make lasting contributions 12:24 < jmbuser> especially a good release like fedora 8 12:25 < stickster> jmbuser: And don't worry about the CVS thing, like I said, it's not a big worry 12:26 < stickster> Mainly I wanted people to be aware that translators don't need to have cvsdocs access, one less hoop through which to jump ;-) 12:26 < couf> do we need to talk about that some more? 12:26 < stickster> This is one reason that we went to using a "po/LINGUAS" file in CVS instead of editing the Makefile -- now translators can simply add themselves in if they're translating a new locale 12:26 < stickster> couf: I'm not sure 12:26 < stickster> The key points are: 12:27 < stickster> (1) we don't have any problems giving people CVS access 12:27 < stickster> (2) translators don't need 'cvsdocs' group membership to do their work 12:27 < stickster> (3) most CVS administrators feel better using least privilege 12:27 < couf> right 12:27 < stickster> (4) since there are other people involved in CVS admin duties than just me and quaid, we'll err on the side of not giving the others heartburn :-) 12:28 < stickster> Having said that, people can author docs in our CVS in a non-"en_US" locale 12:28 < couf> so do we want to flesh out the cvsdocs group? 12:28 < stickster> We don't want to prevent anyone from doing that 12:28 < stickster> couf: You mean, do we want to add new contributors to that group? 12:29 < couf> no, I think a new contributor on docs should have cvsdocs access 12:29 < stickster> sure 12:29 < couf> but there are a lot of translators in cvsdocs, which don't need anything than cvsl10n 12:30 < stickster> couf: Good point that 12:30 < stickster> It might be a good reason to cull that list a little 12:30 < stickster> couf: Are you able to maybe raise this topic in fedora-trans-list? 12:30 < couf> sure 12:30 < stickster> With the main reason being that 'cvsl10n' gives them everything they need, and not because we don't love them 12:31 < couf> yep 12:31 < stickster> L10N ROXXX! 12:31 < stickster> \m/_ _\m/ 12:32 < couf> all righty, next? 12:32 < stickster> OK, I'll look for that thread, thanks couf 12:33 < stickster> I know quaid might have some input too, he can pop in here to let us know if there's something (new) dumb that I've done 12:33 < stickster> Well, roundup on Release Notes is probably in order 12:33 < couf> sure 12:34 < stickster> At least to note that we should be pressing a package update in about a week or so 12:34 < stickster> That's 'nuff said, I think 12:35 -!- stickster changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Documentation Meeting: election planning 12:35 < couf> elections yay 12:36 < stickster> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Policy/FDSCoElections 12:36 < stickster> I thought we had something out there, cool.. 12:36 < stickster> This has some interesting implications with culling the 'cvsdocs' group 12:36 < stickster> But I think it makes sense 12:37 < stickster> Opinions? 12:37 < couf> it does, but I'm not sure translators need to vote on dsco, they have lsco (or something like that) 12:38 < stickster> Right 12:38 < jmbuser> Should we cull the cvsdocs group before the election? 12:38 < couf> imo, ys 12:38 < couf> yes 12:39 < jmbuser> yes to culling 12:39 < stickster> jmbuser: Right, that's where I was pointing... I would hate people to look at that and think we were trying to "disenfranchise" voters :-D 12:39 < stickster> OTOH, as couf said, l10n voters have their own committee 12:40 < stickster> Their work definitely dovetails with ours, certainly 12:40 < stickster> I guess I would lean toward culling the list before we put up nominations 12:40 < EvilBob> If they are interested in Voting why not let them 12:40 < EvilBob> if they are not interested in our election they will not vote 12:41 < couf> true 12:41 < jmbuser> true 12:41 < EvilBob> I don't see why having someone that primarily does translation vote in our election is a problem, our work here does effect them 12:41 < stickster> EvilBob: The only "why not" reason I could give would be the same reason that, for instance, FESCo elections aren't open to people who don't do any maintenance 12:41 < jmbuser> too many voters usually isn't the problem with our election 12:42 < stickster> But I don't see that as a good reason, so... ;-) 12:42 < stickster> I think the funny thing is, this is a good reason not to give out CVS access willy-nilly 12:42 < EvilBob> I would say no culling until after the election 12:42 < stickster> But in a volunteer project where so many people work together closely, it seems silly not to let people have a say 12:43 < stickster> Let's put it this way -- I coordinated a lot of POT work with release notes for the last cycle. 12:43 < stickster> That impacted a lot of L10N resources. 12:43 < EvilBob> after the election we can clean up the list and those that want to be part of our process can get added back in 12:43 < couf> okay, I'm starting to turn into a cull after elections 12:43 < stickster> If people there hate how I handle things, why shouldn't they be allowed to express it? 12:43 < jmbuser> no culling then 12:43 < stickster> Yeah, I think I'm having a mind-changing experience :-) 12:43 < couf> :-) 12:43 < EvilBob> I win! 12:44 < stickster> haha 12:44 < couf> lol 12:44 < couf> so dates? 12:44 < stickster> Let's back-burner this until post-election, but it will be the responsibility of the new FDSCo to make sure it gets done within, say, two weeks after elections. 12:44 < stickster> Should be a fairly easy job.. 12:44 < EvilBob> stickster: +1 12:44 < couf> okay +1 12:45 < jmbuser> +1 12:45 < EvilBob> thanks guys 12:45 < stickster> Well, our charter says we should try to coincide with the FESCo elections 12:45 < stickster> I'll make sure abadger_afk knows we would like to do that 12:46 < stickster> for instance, by shouting abadger_afk 12:46 < EvilBob> stickster: yes and make sure he can handle two elections at one time 12:46 < abadger_afk> stickster: yo! 12:46 -!- abadger is now known as abadger1999 12:46 < stickster> See, it's like magic! He's like our guardian democratic angel 12:47 < couf> when's the FESCo election? I thought that happend some time ago? 12:47 < stickster> couf: Already for post-F8? 12:47 < stickster> I couldn't have missed that news, could I? :-\ 12:47 * stickster knows quite well he very well could have 12:47 * couf could be wrong 12:47 < abadger1999> FESCo has annual elections. So they were post-F7 12:47 < couf> aha 12:47 < stickster> Ah, not per release? 12:48 < abadger1999> Correct 12:48 < stickster> OK. Our charter has them per release, which I believe we confirmed last cycle. 12:48 < couf> so we could maybe tie into the FAMSCo elections then? 12:48 < stickster> Sure. 12:48 < stickster> abadger1999: We just want to make sure we're not giving people election fatigue 12:48 * EvilBob is listening to some local guys down on San Andres Island working a morse code contest. 12:49 < couf> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2007-November/msg00078.html 12:49 < stickster> Once we come up with dates, abadger1999, can I just get in touch with you? 12:49 < abadger1999> Okay. We still don't have a way to hold multiple elections at the same time :-( 12:49 < stickster> Oh, gotcha. 12:49 < EvilBob> OK 12:49 < abadger1999> No one's had time to rewrite the app. 12:50 < abadger1999> stickster: Yep. Go ahead and send me the details and I'll set it up. 12:50 < stickster> That reminds me, I may have entered that issue in your trac db, but I'm not sure. 12:50 < stickster> It was probably a "we'll get to this post-apocalypse" issue :-D 12:50 < stickster> Thanks abadger1999, will do. 12:50 < stickster> All right, gang, we should probably figure out who's up this time -- that should be easy to find out from looking at the post-F7 ML archives. 12:51 < stickster> Let's do that on-list, eh? 12:51 < EvilBob> I am not up this time, but I would like to offer up my seat as I have not been that active. 12:51 < jmbuser> ok 12:52 < couf> euh, that would be post f6 12:52 < couf> we didn't have an election last time, due to lack of time 12:52 < stickster> Oh, is that right? 12:52 < stickster> whoops. 12:52 < EvilBob> couf: right 12:52 < couf> we were going to have one, but it just didn't happen 12:53 < couf> in that case, actually all seats should be up for election 12:53 < stickster> couf: Are you sure? I see updates on the Elections page back around February 2007 12:53 < couf> unless we decide differently 12:53 < couf> we were going to have one in August too 12:53 < EvilBob> couf: no I think we simply pushed out the schedule 12:54 < stickster> Ah yes, I see where you're pointing couf 12:54 < couf> ah yeah, maybe we should reallign it with the more formal release schedule 12:54 < stickster> Right. So this will be our mid-cycle election -- perhaps doing this at some point significantly before Alpha, so that we don't end up doing this in the middle of the release pushes 12:55 < couf> +1 12:55 < stickster> That would mean around three weeks from now -- maybe coinciding somewhat with Christmas, although that shouldn't be a big problem with a two-week vote period 12:56 < EvilBob> +1 12:56 < jmbuser> +1 12:56 < couf> yeah, alpha is scheduled for 15 Jan, so that would be okay 12:56 < EvilBob> stickster: so just after the ambassadors election? 12:56 < stickster> EvilBob: what are their dates 12:56 < stickster> ? 12:56 < couf> see above link 12:56 < EvilBob> Nominations: 11/21/2007 to 12/2/2007 12:56 < EvilBob> Voting Period: 12/4/2007 to 12/11/2007 12:57 < stickster> self.head.conk() 12:57 < stickster> Sure, that seems opportune, then. 12:57 < stickster> We could do voting for a week or so, that seems plenty for our-sized group. 12:57 < stickster> Say, 12/11 - 12/18, or 12/12 - 12/19 12:57 < couf> self nomination untill 12/20 12:58 < couf> wow, I meant 12/12 12:58 < EvilBob> so 18th - 25th or the 1st? 12:58 < stickster> I would go for noms 12/4 - 12/11, then voting somewhere around 12/12 - 12/19 12:58 < couf> right 12:58 < EvilBob> if we start voting a week after ambassadors I think it might be good 12:59 < stickster> I think the worry would be doing a week during the week of Christmas -- bad idea 12:59 < stickster> Plus, we need some time between the election close and the ramp-up of the Alpha release, to make sure we're getting our guides off the ground 13:00 < stickster> We can hit this more on list 13:00 < EvilBob> the holiday is the 25th, so the 18th start date would give a week before then and 4 voting days before people leave for a week+ 13:01 < stickster> I don't see what the extra week gains us, other than white space on a calendar 13:02 < stickster> The priority I was looking at was moving back from the release schedule milestone dates 13:02 < EvilBob> abadger1999: how soon after the ambassadors election can youhave our's ready? 13:02 < stickster> We could always split the middle, do something like 12/15-12/22 13:03 < stickster> That has the added bonus of capturing all or part of two weekends 13:03 < EvilBob> stickster: yeah I was just looking at the 14th here 13:03 < abadger1999> EvilBob: The next day. People usu. like to have two weekends, though. 13:03 < stickster> Maybe 15-22 Dec, or 15-23 Dec would be best. 13:03 < EvilBob> stickster: 14 -24? 13:04 < EvilBob> stickster: that gives us almost 2 weekend 13:04 < stickster> EvilBob: Sure. The length of the voting period seems excessive for as small a number of votes as we're likely to get, but meh 13:04 < stickster> Let's do that. 13:04 < stickster> +1 13:04 < couf> and he wins again :-) 13:04 < stickster> EvilBob is active when it comes to arguing :-D 13:04 < jmbuser> +1 13:04 < EvilBob> nominations in by the 12th, voting 14-24 13:04 < EvilBob> stickster: LOL 13:05 < stickster> EvilBob: disco 13:05 < stickster> All right, AOB? 13:05 < jmbuser> EvilBob shoots...and scores! 13:05 < stickster> 15 sec 13:05 < couf> just noting: sorry to not enter into the sig/project thread, I seemed to not have any pro/cons either way 13:05 * stickster clock resets 13:06 < stickster> Not a problem. I think we resolved it the right way 13:06 < stickster> cooler heads usually prevail. 13:06 < couf> yeah 13:06 < stickster> AOB? 13:06 < couf> anyway interesting discussion 13:06 < stickster> 15 sec 13:06 < EvilBob> none here 13:06 < stickster> 10 13:06 < couf> nope 13:06 < stickster> 5 13:06 < stickster> 4 13:06 < stickster> 3 13:06 < jmbuser> no 13:06 < stickster> 2 13:06 < stickster> 1 13:06 < stickster> </meeting> -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug
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