HTML at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20070814 09:03 < quaid> <meeting> 09:03 < quaid> greetings all after a hiatus :) 09:04 < jmbuser> JohnBabich 09:04 < quaid> KarstenWade ?!? 09:05 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda 09:05 < quaid> hmm, well, that's somewhat relevant 09:07 < quaid> wow, i'm a bit stimied 09:08 < quaid> I'm literally sitting here trying to figure out what to type 09:09 < quaid> it's not that there isn't anything to discuss, it's that ... well I'm not sure these meetings have much relevancy anymore 09:10 < quaid> I'm having a massive circle of doubt around Fedora Docs 09:10 < quaid> ok, IMO we don't have anything to meet about; 09:11 < quaid> we don't have enough people for a discussion, nothing to decide, and a large apathy:resource ratio to deal with 09:11 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_work 09:11 < quaid> so I'm going to leave things open here for a few minutes to see if anything has the desire to discuss this right now 09:11 < jmbuser> quaid: We have a great deal to discuss - how to motivate people, for one 09:11 * stickster_work is taking lunch here at desk, back in 5 min. to discuss/bitch/whine/whatever 09:11 < quaid> otherwise, i think we need a serious on-list discussion 09:12 < quaid> jmbuser: I'm getting to be unusually pessimistic about that 09:12 < quaid> as in, how many times can we beat on that horse? 09:12 < jmbuser> quaid: I've been here for a year - a very good year and I'm still motivated - but currently distracted by chaos at work 09:13 < jmbuser> quaid: I see good things happening in the toolchain and in translation 09:13 < jmbuser> Fedora 7 threw us a curve ball with the open-endedness of the application list 09:14 < quaid> well, we are more ambitiuous than we have resources for 09:14 < glezos> quaid, I'm a bit worried about that as well 09:16 < quaid> I feel disapppointed, I gues 09:16 < quaid> we've done a great job of building a scalable project 09:16 < glezos> it's probably OK with Beats/relnotes before each release -- but do we have the resources to follow the wiki -> docbook -> CVS/etc -> publishing for every doc? 09:17 < quaid> but not enough have showed up, and it's all about "the barriers" and "red tape" 09:17 < quaid> glezos: the problem is, we get ~2 people _ever_ who wnt to work in XML 09:17 < glezos> quaid, exactly. 09:17 < quaid> we're adding Plone to that -- plone => docbook => CVS etc. 09:17 < stickster_work> The problem is not the tools, it's the dedication of people to actually get the job done. 09:18 < quaid> does Docs just attract the wrong kind of people? 09:18 < stickster_work> Although there's an argument to be made that the number of tools available makes for fragmenting the workload 09:18 < quaid> those looking for something easier than we present? 09:19 < stickster_work> I don't know how it gets easier when you have people willing to hold hands 09:19 < glezos> stickster_work, I think it's also the tools -- people might be more willing to "just" create a howto/doc in a wiki page 09:19 < stickster_work> glezos: We don't want people to do that, though. 09:19 < stickster_work> We want them to agree to *maintain* it. 09:19 < stickster_work> That's a different level of work commitment. 09:20 < glezos> stickster_work, why not? better nothing than something? We could eventually put a warning on top "this is deprecated" in the worst case 09:20 < ricky> By the way, have you guys started playing with Plone more yet? 09:20 < stickster_work> glezos: That's just multiplying the problem we have now by X number of quasi-contributors 09:20 < glezos> stickster_work, for example, the L10n project would like to update the TQSG with the new stuff, but nobody is doing it because it's too hard 09:20 < ricky> I'm not completely clear on you plan on using it for, I'm just a bit curious. 09:20 < stickster_work> glezos: Actually, noriko is working on that now 09:21 < stickster_work> I was helping her on Friday night 09:21 < stickster_work> ricky: By "you guys," do you mean the ~2.5 of us that are working actively in this project? 09:21 < ricky> Oh.. I guess? 09:22 < glezos> stickster_work, what I want to say is that there is a level of committment various people are willing to take, and docbook/cvs might be too high a step for most of them to take. 09:22 < quaid> ricky: two parts 09:23 < quaid> ricky: to serve fedoraproject.org itself, which is out of the Docs scope but since daMaestro is setting up one instance ... 09:23 < stickster_work> glezos: If we're going to raise a barn together, pretty much everyone needs to commit to hammering, sawing, and hefting. 09:23 < stickster_work> glezos: People who only want to count timbers and fetch water, you only need a couple of 'em ;-) 09:23 < quaid> ricky: for docs.fp.o, Jon is adding a custom workflow that includes outputting to XML into CVS for canonical source and translation. 09:23 < quaid> glezos: I think we have made the Wiki quite available for that level 09:24 < ricky> OK. I'm not sure about status of fp.o itself at the moment. Hopefully, there will be a bit more discussion before that happens. 09:24 < quaid> and people do that for other parts of the wiki, I presume; lightweight documentation 09:24 < stickster_work> Right 09:24 < ricky> Hmm.. sounds interesting. So the final docs would still be generated from DocBook? 09:24 < glezos> stickster_work, so if we don't have the people, then we might need to rethink if we want to raise a barn or just a plain-ol bench under an oak tree. :) 09:24 < quaid> ricky: yes 09:24 < quaid> glezos: that's true, yet ... 09:24 < stickster_work> I'm not interested in bench-building, personally. 09:25 < stickster_work> I can do that on my own. I'd rather raise a barn with a dozen other people. 09:25 < stickster_work> With the wiki, anyone can "build a bench." Done. 09:26 < stickster_work> If there's going to be a FDP, we need to commit to barn-building. 09:26 < quaid> +1 09:26 < quaid> that's the point 09:26 < ricky> So basically, people don't want to edit docbook sources directly/translate with po files? 09:26 < glezos> stickster_work, personally, I think our docs infrastructure is already a shiny building I'm proud of. :) 09:26 < quaid> of we are only going to get big enough to build benches, we should dissolve all the hard work and be a SIG 09:27 < stickster_work> ricky: Well, we have plenty of people translating, no problems there as far as I can tell 09:27 < glezos> ricky, translators want to work with PO files, yes. Not with Docbook. 09:27 < quaid> ricky: people want to translate PO files 09:27 < quaid> heh 09:27 < stickster_work> That's a great community, no doubt 09:27 < ricky> So the thing is that people don't like docbook? 09:27 < quaid> ricky: the idea for a while has been to enable multiple $editors with one powerful source in the middle (DocBook) 09:27 < stickster_work> And the community of writers != community of l10n'ers 09:28 < ricky> Aha. 09:28 < quaid> we're actually quite good with that; a guide can be worked entirely in the wiki and output at the end with just a few hours of clean-up 09:28 < ricky> Heh. 09:28 < quaid> now we're adding Plone + Kupu to that 09:28 < quaid> I don't think Docbook is the problem at all 09:28 < quaid> I also don't think it is really the "red tape" 09:29 < quaid> I think it is that we are asking people to be real contributors, not toss-over-the-wallers 09:29 < quaid> and we have the same problem all other tech projects have around docs; "we need that" and "someone else has to do it, i don't have time" 09:30 < glezos> quaid, if we enable people to write docs and maintain them *on the wiki*, do you think the problem won't be solved? 09:30 < quaid> that's right 09:31 < quaid> I don't see where we have told anyone they cannot maintain a doc on the Wiki 09:31 < quaid> in fact, that's what the Docs/ space is for 09:31 < stickster_work> The wiki can accumulate deprecated docs as fast as (or faster than) any other publishing platform 09:31 < glezos> quaid, I think that people won't have a problem maintaining something on the wiki. I'd maintain the TQSG if it was on the wiki to be honest. 09:31 < quaid> we just said, if you want it translated ... 09:31 < quaid> well, my thought is to turn the wiki into a 100% community docs place 09:32 < quaid> and the question then is ... 09:32 < ricky> ^Agreed. 09:32 < quaid> should Docs feel responsible for keeping it clean. 09:32 < quaid> ? 09:32 < quaid> glezos: but how would you get the TQSG translated? 09:32 < stickster_work> ^ +1 09:32 < quaid> do we want 2 more l10n systems (Wiki, Plone) 09:32 < stickster_work> :-P 09:33 < ricky> Not necessarily responsible/high-priority, but it'd be nice :) 09:33 < glezos> quaid, I'd prefer to first worry on how to have up2date content and *then* for l10n 09:33 < ricky> My impression was that l10n was handled after the conversion to docbook (following the normal translation team workflow). 09:33 < quaid> yes 09:34 < quaid> but if a doc is maintained on the wiki ... 09:34 < stickster_work> ricky: The point is that wiki changes happen all the time and every change to a converted doc has to be manually ported in 09:34 < quaid> even if it were automated, it's still hard to track 09:34 < quaid> people don't apply any level of rigor to Wiki work like they do to other work, IME 09:34 < stickster_work> +2 09:34 < quaid> we would have to layer a whole CMS-like system -- 09:34 < ricky> Does having docs maintained on the wiki somehow increase contributor drive? 09:34 < glezos> My thinking was to have a wiki space where wiki pages are of high-quality in terms of Documentation. They have passed editorial control, they are maintained (names appearing) and if not, there is a warning about it. Lightweight docs as you said. 09:35 < quaid> Docs/ 09:35 < quaid> been there for a long time :) 09:35 < ricky> From what I've seen, most projects just have docbook in an SCM, right? 09:35 < quaid> ricky: for example ... 09:35 < stickster_work> We had an initial influx of work for wiki-based docs, but other than the release notes, people have not really done a huge amount of follow-through on drafts 09:35 < quaid> ricky: take the Mozilla Developer site; they changed from XML in CVS to a Wiki 09:36 < quaid> ricky: this was a highly technical group, but they never did their XML work; but in the Wiki, they saw contributions from the community increase 10x 09:36 < ricky> Aha. So it does help a lot. 09:36 < quaid> so experience shows that people will edit a Wiki, but not maintain there as much 09:37 < quaid> there needs to be people who dedicate themselves to doing janitorial work. 09:37 < quaid> and while that could be this project, to be honest ... 09:37 < quaid> it's not the interest of the active participants 09:37 < quaid> for the most part. 09:37 < ricky> Isn't basic cleanup really easy for bystanders to do on the wiki? 09:37 < quaid> maybe we should advertise for Wiki editors? 09:37 < glezos> quaid, right. We could help people "helping themselves" in maintaining.. Deprecation warnings, categories for obsolete docs, etc. 09:37 < stickster_work> It will be once we get moin 1.6 and the click through CLA in place, right quaid ? 09:37 < quaid> ricky: presuming they know how to write and follow a style guide, yes 09:38 < quaid> stickster_work: well, easier to get people accounts, yes 09:38 < stickster_work> quaid: That's a HUGE presumption too 09:38 < quaid> HUGE 09:39 < quaid> I think after we have Plone up to be a real CMS 09:39 < quaid> we need to reinvent the Wiki 09:39 < quaid> and do some announcemenets around that 09:39 < ricky> I'm personally somewhat afraid of Plone. 09:39 < quaid> which part? 09:40 < quaid> ricky: the reason for Plone is pretty simple 09:40 < quaid> ricky: the process to go from DocBook XML to published pages, no matter how we do it, if it is manual, we'll have about 2.5 people who know how to publish 09:40 < ricky> Well, as a frontend to editing Docbook, I'm not too concerned. 09:40 < quaid> Plone let's us put that in the hands of content area owners, and to automate the XML build so normal folks can edit/publish 09:41 < stickster_work> Best features of both wiki + docbook 09:41 < stickster_work> Easy writing for people who just want to write 09:41 < stickster_work> Toolchain options for other publishing (PDF, RPM, etc.) 09:42 < ricky> For anything something more complex (like a full-blown CMS), it can have a steep learning curve. 09:42 < quaid> well, it's a new Web app to learn 09:42 < glezos> ricky, +1 09:42 < quaid> but you can create documents and edit them with a better WYSIWYG editor than a Wiki is 09:43 < ricky> The GNOME web team has actually been trying to move over to a Plone site.. and it's been painful so far (I saw participation/activity drop down *a lot*). 09:43 < ricky> But as I said, for an editing interface, it might work well :) 09:44 < quaid> well, in terms of just Docs ... 09:44 < quaid> that is, for the Websites side, you see the benefits, right? 09:44 < quaid> I guess for Docs, I can't see how participation can get much lower. 09:45 < ricky> What do you mean about the websites side? 09:46 < quaid> what I mean is, the serving of fedorproject.org front pages 09:46 < quaid> v. having the Wiki be the front page 09:46 < quaid> or having us manually create and maintain pages, or hack up SSIs or whatever 09:47 < ricky> Well, that's where I've seen a lot of pain in other projects. I'm currently researching any other possibilities. 09:47 < quaid> right now, if you want to delegate some set of pages to a new Websites person, they need a lot experience and access 09:47 < quaid> setup pain? or maintenance pain? 09:47 < ricky> If you want to maintain clean markup and use kupu, you must know HTML decently (from what I've seen). 09:47 < quaid> I guess the usage of Plone for the front-page was an older idea that is just included with our GSoC work; it can be decoupled, though. 09:48 < quaid> hmm, I haven't edited extensively in Kupu, it just looked like straight XHTML editing. 09:48 < ricky> I don't want to rant on against Plone, but templating for it and customizing page layouts hasn't been easy for me. 09:48 < jmbuser> IMHO, the wiki presentation quality is much improved...thanks to Plone 09:49 < quaid> jmbuser: sorry, where? 09:49 < jmbuser> That's part of the communications process 09:49 < jmbuser> quaid: the main page 09:49 < ricky> Well, maybe it can be modified to remove some of the presentational tags/attributes that it produces. 09:49 < quaid> ricky: well, beat on daMaestro, definitely don't let him get away with an unmaintainable hack for the front-page stuff 09:49 < quaid> jmbuser: main page isn't Plone 09:49 < jmbuser> educate me... 09:49 < EvilBob> HI ALL! 09:49 < quaid> jmbuser: it's just plain HTML + CSS 09:50 < quaid> EvilBob: howdy 09:50 < jmbuser> ahhhh 09:50 < EvilBob> ricky: templating plone is not that hard 09:50 * jmbuser was suffering under a delusion 09:50 < ricky> I don't want to start a war over this, honestly, but I'm hoping to open up the options a bit. 09:50 < quaid> ricky: oh, hardly a war 09:50 < glezos> quaid, do you think plone will increase the number of contributors to docs? 09:51 < ricky> EvilBob: Well, I'm admittedly somewhat pedantic about having "perfectly" clean markup, etc. 09:51 < quaid> ricky: a foregone decision doesn't mean it's locked in stone 09:51 < EvilBob> ricky: http://fedorasolved.org/ 09:51 < quaid> glezos: yes, in a few ways 09:51 < quaid> glezos: number of people who can edit/publish can increase easily 09:52 < EvilBob> ricky: make it work first clean it up later 09:52 < quaid> glezos: if people can write with a Web UI editor and have that go directly into l10n and publishing without leaving the Web UI, I reckon that will help 09:53 < EvilBob> ricky: there are many sites out there running plone that most people can not tell are running plone from the outside 09:54 < ricky> EvilBob: Really? I'd be really interested to hear about some, actually. 09:54 * jmbuser has to cut and run 09:54 < EvilBob> ricky: sure we can hook up later 09:55 < ricky> EvilBob: OK, feel free to PM me if you ever want, or you know where to find me on IRC :) 09:55 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:55 < quaid> glezos: esp. if Plone is additive rather than replacing 09:56 < glezos> quaid, agreed. 09:56 < glezos> quaid, if we do manage to have this infrastructure, then it would be great. 09:56 < kanarip> glezos, especially when it doesn't take a year or so to save my doc updates 09:56 < EvilBob> heh 09:56 < EvilBob> wiki pains 09:57 * stickster_work wonders if his planned vfudcon How to Make Docs in CVS is simply a waste of time 09:57 * ricky will probably listen to it :) 09:57 < EvilBob> stickster_work: no 09:57 < EvilBob> not a waste 09:57 < EvilBob> we still need the skills 09:57 < EvilBob> IMO anyhow 09:57 < glezos> Q: do we know of any project (other than wikipedia), that is maintaining high-quality docs on a wiki? 09:58 < ricky> I think he mentioned developer.mozilla.org 09:58 < EvilBob> glezos: a wiki != moinmoin 09:59 < quaid> yes, developer.mozilla.org is one 10:00 < ricky> Anyway, I'm off to lunch now- thanks for taking the time to explain everything to me. 10:00 < ricky> (I'll try to somewhat keep up with the discussion later, hopefully) 10:00 < quaid> we should wrap up 10:00 < quaid> anyone want to add anything more here? 10:01 < quaid> otherwise, we'll continue on-list :) 10:03 < glezos> I'm ok.. sorry if I sounded too negative -- m just trying to think if we are 10:04 < glezos> doing something that could be improved by re-engineering some of our processes. 10:04 < EvilBob> glezos: there has been talk that we are doing more than moinmoin was designed for 10:04 < stickster_work> glezos: You're not offbase... it's just hard to see where the improvement factors come in when there isn't a sufficient sample of where our time is spent on current processes, because there are so few people using them to start with 10:05 < EvilBob> glezos: if that is what you are talking about 10:06 < glezos> agreed :) 10:06 < quaid> ok then ... 10:06 < EvilBob> IMO having to wait for page saves in excess of a minute is ridiculous 10:07 < EvilBob> I don't know where the bottle neck is in that process 10:07 < quaid> it's a design thing, and there has been research into it 10:07 < quaid> Infra has one person who did some tests, etc. 10:08 < vpv> EvilBob: afaik moin goes through all the user accounts to find which ones to notify, rayvd has been working on it, but I haven't heard from him in a while 10:08 < EvilBob> Yeah I know others know about it and have looked at it 10:08 < mmcgrath> EvilBob: Every time you save, moin has to iterate over every user file and every regex in that file to see if that user should be notified about that page. 10:08 < EvilBob> mmcgrath: that is what I thought 10:09 < mmcgrath> we even deleted a bunch of users back in the day (we deleted about 7000 IIRC) and that helpped but it only masked the problem. 10:09 < stickster_work> design-- 10:10 * mmcgrath bbiab 10:10 < ricky> Woah. 7000. 10:11 < quaid> yeah, imagine if all those people could edit, scary :) 10:11 < EvilBob> moinmoin was chosen because it met the software requirements IIRC, using python was one of them 10:11 < EvilBob> scalability was not high enough on the requirements list I guess 10:11 < quaid> well, no one knew back then 10:12 < EvilBob> right 10:12 < quaid> and we may be a rather big user of Moin compared to ohers 10:12 < f13> IIRC we're the biggest 10:13 < EvilBob> what works great for a dozen users may not work well for a dozen gross 10:13 < quaid> Fedora contributors -- more than a gross! 10:14 < EvilBob> Yeah 10:14 < ricky> Still >7000, it seems. 10:14 < ricky> Or maybe not.. hmm.. 10:15 < EvilBob> I do hope that plone on zope will scale to meet the needs of our contributor and user bases 10:15 < EvilBob> we really don't know until we start throwing stuff at it I guess 10:16 < EvilBob> I have to get back to work 10:16 < EvilBob> BBL 10:16 < ricky> Well, for the docs team, step one would be to get some highly available Plone experts around. 10:21 < quaid> </meeting>
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