HTML version of this log is at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20070612 09:03 < quaid> <meeting> 09:04 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings 09:06 < BobJensen> stale docs... Fresh Docs are better 09:06 < quaid> :) 09:06 < quaid> stickster_work: do you want to kick that off? 09:06 < jmbuser> +1 09:08 < BobJensen> Do we have examples of what does are now stale? 09:08 < glezos> Bob-Laptop: some translations of the TQSG 09:09 < glezos> we haven't found a way to monitor the "expireness" of docs 09:09 < glezos> even with per-release docs like the relnotes 09:10 < BobJensen> Looking at http://docs.fedoraproject.org/ I don't even see our most popular document from what mmcgrath was telling us, "SElinux" 09:13 < glezos> maybe we should create a big, single table with all our docs, their published points and their last updates to help management? 09:14 < jmbuser> for reference only, +1 09:17 < BobJensen> I don't know what to suggest 09:19 -!- |DrJef| [n=onefjef@fedora/Jef] has joined #fedora-docs 09:19 * quaid is finishing a call, sorry he's distracted 09:19 < quaid> done! 09:19 < BobJensen> Do we have examples of what does are now stale? 09:19 < quaid> I think Plone best handle this 09:19 < quaid> or it's not a CMS 09:20 < quaid> but automagic notice? 09:20 < quaid> that's going to require CVS + CMS magic 09:20 < quaid> I recommend ... 09:20 < quaid> when daMaestro asks us onlist for requirements for Plone, we make sure this is there 09:20 < BobJensen> +1 09:20 < quaid> "Automagic notice of when a document is stale with translations" 09:21 < quaid> and maybe automagic changing of an icon "Document trans out of date" 09:22 < BobJensen> Should I call daMaestro and get him in here? 09:22 * couf returns after being called away, sorry 09:22 < quaid> BobJensen: you don't see that document because it hasn't been updated since FC5 09:22 < quaid> BobJensen: I'd like to do it onlist 09:22 < BobJensen> quaid: K 09:23 < BobJensen> quaid: that will help Jon track things also 09:23 < quaid> yep 09:23 * quaid sends that email he forgot to send 09:23 < quaid> yeah, I've already given him crap that I'm going to watch to make sure the RH internship doesn't distract too much :) 09:23 < quaid> right now, afaict, the Plone stuff is the highest priority activity in all of FEdora 09:24 < quaid> but that's just my opinion :) 09:24 < BobJensen> I see a need to get the SElinux Document updated 09:24 < quaid> I emailed dwalsh about it 09:24 < BobJensen> things have changed a lot 09:24 < quaid> he was on the Cc: of my last message 09:25 < couf> yeah, I'm guessing we don't have the real knowlegde to keep that up2date 09:25 < BobJensen> I would be willing to work with Dan to get the SElinux stuff updated 09:25 < quaid> that's the thing 09:25 < quaid> I think we need to reconsider how we do that document 09:25 < quaid> maybe we do need to move the FAQ to the Wiki for now 09:26 < quaid> it would be updated if it had been in the Wiki, because Dan has been working on that 09:26 < BobJensen> Dan's Blog has a ton of stuff in it 09:26 * quaid knows the evils of moving content backward to the Wiki, though 09:26 < couf> quaid: +1 09:26 < jmbuser> BobJensen: There used to be quite a few pundits recommending to turn selinux, which seemed to have prompted many of the searches AFAICT 09:26 < quaid> fucking developers ... 09:26 < jmbuser> s/selinux/selinux off/ 09:26 < quaid> if they would take 1/10th of their blogging time and make it actually part of the project ... 09:27 < quaid> jmbuser: right, and we need clear docs that say why those pundits are wrong :) 09:27 < jmbuser> Now selinux is very stable and is considered a big plus 09:27 < quaid> fwiw, I passed on the maintainership a while ago, and that person has dropped maintaining it, despite nagmails and such 09:28 < quaid> so, the best way from here 09:28 < quaid> is to enable the developers 09:28 < jmbuser> quaid: we should definitely nag the developers to write at least a decent doc which can be improved 09:28 < quaid> or ... push the content upward to the SELinux Wiki and likn there 09:29 < couf> can we link to the selinux faq? http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/info/faq.cfm 09:29 < BobJensen> We need plone 09:29 < BobJensen> period 09:29 < couf> and add some fedora-specifcs in the wiki 09:29 < couf> BobJensen: +1000 09:30 < quaid> couf: that one is useless to users, though 09:30 < BobJensen> on top of that we need plone to do what we need 09:30 < couf> quaid: didn't really check it, came up as top-google search 09:31 < quaid> yeah 09:31 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SELinux/FAQ 09:31 < quaid> we could dump all of the FC5 FAQ there and ask the Fedora guys to update it 09:31 < quaid> then setup a redirect from docs.fp.o/selinux-faq/.* to go there :) 09:32 < couf> or could we use the RHEL4 SEL Guide? 09:32 < quaid> http://selinuxproject.org/page/Main_Page 09:32 < couf> opening that can again ... 09:32 < quaid> couf: that piece of shit :) 09:32 < BobJensen> yeah those worms are now snakes 09:32 < quaid> also outdated :) 09:32 < couf> hey it's better than nothing 09:32 < quaid> so, the question is ... 09:33 < quaid> does FEdora need a Fedora-specific how-to/FAQ? 09:33 < quaid> or should we donate the content to selinuxproject.org 09:33 < quaid> and redirect all stuff there 09:33 < quaid> that is, isn't SELinux generic enough to not need FEdora-specific stuff? 09:33 < BobJensen> aI think Dan would have to answer that 09:33 < quaid> true dat 09:34 < couf> yeah, we should give Dan some time to anwser and see from then on 09:34 < BobJensen> Having a "fedora" document does have some value IMO 09:34 < quaid> ok 09:35 < BobJensen> When most people search for solutions they are including "fedora" in the query 09:35 < quaid> true dat 09:36 < quaid> ok, dan isn't around, I'll email him separate to get his attention, 09:36 < quaid> ready to finish statle doc discussions? 09:36 < couf> so remove thoose docs (like ol' translations)? 09:36 < BobJensen> plus even if they are using DistroX and they do not include the distro name in the search maybe they find our document and give Fedora a look for their next distro 09:37 < BobJensen> +1 next item 09:38 < quaid> hmm 09:38 < quaid> remove old 09:38 < quaid> tough 09:38 < quaid> sometimes it's not neccesary, since the difference isn't important 09:38 < couf> heh, that's actually the basic question imo 09:38 < quaid> other times it is a big difference 09:38 < quaid> so, case-by-case? 09:38 < couf> yeah 09:39 < quaid> ok, um 09:39 < quaid> do we need to decide here? 09:39 < quaid> or can we discuss and decide on list? 09:39 < couf> I'd say list, could get some translaters attention and make them update 09:39 < quaid> that too 09:40 < quaid> for paul's specific question, I think remove and send email to f-trans-l 09:40 < quaid> ok, moving on ... 09:40 < quaid> so, we need to keep our momentum going with the current guides 09:40 < quaid> is anyone spread too thin to keep their momentum? 09:41 * quaid notices raven updated the TQSG trans for pl today 09:43 < glezos> quaid: translators need to be informed when the POT changes and these POTs should appear on the statistics page so that one can see where his language is lacking, how many strings behind etc. 09:43 < quaid> yep 09:43 < Bob-Laptop> momentum is at a crawl here but you all know that 09:43 < couf> heh that's where you come in glezos :-) 09:44 < couf> momentum is a bit slow here aswell, lot's of daily life, should be better in a week or two 09:44 < couf> when I'll try to get started with the AG 09:45 < quaid> well, we /= just FDSCo 09:46 < Bob-Laptop> BB in 5 09:46 < quaid> for example, jonrob is doing a lot lately, is he spreading himself too thin? should we recommend/ask him to focus on just one guide? 09:46 * quaid picks on jonrob as an example only! 09:47 < couf> aah good point 09:47 * quaid remembers his AOB was "FDSCo elections" 09:47 < quaid> maybe we want a gang-on approach 09:47 < quaid> all gang-on FUG, then all gang-on AG, etc. 09:48 * quaid thinks our TLAs are a bit risque 09:49 < jmbuser> quaid: +1 on concentrated approach - prioritize and conquer one at a time 09:49 < couf> hmm yeah 09:49 < Bob-Laptop> Back 09:50 < quaid> maybe we should 09:50 < quaid> I mean, I could contribute a bit to each guide in series better than in parallel 09:50 < quaid> anyone thing that is a bad approach right now? 09:51 < quaid> or other objections to it? expansions? 09:51 < quaid> I propose these priorities: 09:51 < BobJensen> quaid: I like the team work idea as long as we have a "master editor" to fix things like tone 09:51 < quaid> 1. SMG (split) => UG, AG 09:51 < quaid> 2. UG 09:51 < quaid> 3. AG 09:51 < quaid> sorry,w ait 09:52 < quaid> 3. SpinG 09:52 < quaid> 4. AG 09:52 < quaid> 5. Devel Guide and/or RPM Guide 09:52 < quaid> BobJensen: maybe that is the lead writer's job? and then an editor comes afterward 09:52 < BobJensen> quaid: Sure 09:53 < quaid> ok 09:53 < jmbuser> quaid: Does the editor do the XML conversion? 09:53 < quaid> hmm 09:54 < quaid> jmbuser: I think that is a team effort 09:54 < quaid> jmbuser: since it isn't automated yet 09:54 < quaid> no one is forced to help, but no reason not to :) 09:54 < BobJensen> I have no desire to write anything in the wiki at this point 09:54 < quaid> BobJensen: where do you want to write? 09:55 < BobJensen> quaid: LOL I don't even know 09:55 < BobJensen> I will figure that out and do something 09:56 < quaid> ok 09:56 < quaid> BobJensen: I asked jonrob (iirc) to get with fedoraunity.org to decide where the upstream was for Revisor docs 09:57 < quaid> check out the recent threads there 09:57 < quaid> so we have two separate live media needs 09:57 < quaid> 1. Help document the new GUI tool (revisor) 09:57 < quaid> - these should be the docs that are in the package (/usr/share/doc) 09:58 < quaid> 2. Write a Fedora Spinning Live Media Guide that tells how-to do some common stuff using these tools 09:58 < quaid> - "make a live CD" "make a custom distro" 09:58 < quaid> - 09:58 < quaid> - "make a USB live media that boots and shit" 09:58 < quaid> etc. 09:58 < BobJensen> quaid: Yeah we are a bit slpit on where we want upstream to be, I will force a decision, if they don't have one yet 09:59 < glezos> quaid: the last guide sounds like something that should be written on the wiki rather than on a guide. (freqent changes) 09:59 < couf> for the record +1 on the team effort idea 09:59 < quaid> BobJensen: we're cool with fu being the upstream, from a content view, IMHO 10:00 < quaid> couf: rockin' 10:00 < quaid> glezos: good enough for now, we can make a stub for where the Plone version lives 10:00 < quaid> since Plone has a WYSIWYG HTML editor, there is *no* reason to continue using the Wiki for docs drafting :) 10:00 < glezos> quaid: right. 10:01 < quaid> e.g. docs.fp.o/spinning-live-media/ has a link or a redirect to the Wiki version until we can Plone-ify it 10:01 < couf> hey maybe a sort of round trip, we do the guides, release time (relnotes and IG), we revise the guides again, blabla 10:01 < quaid> couf: yes 10:01 < quaid> couf: I thnk it is working out that way, sort of 10:01 < quaid> while it's nice to have all new content with a release ... well, stuff changes after the release, too 10:01 < quaid> if the community can edit the docs after a release 10:01 < couf> yeah, but this time do everything as team effort 10:02 < quaid> that is, we immediately copy over the old into the new and start updating live 10:02 < quaid> .... with a way to mark that content has been updated 10:02 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02 < quaid> maybe it appears in RED if it hasn't been marked as updated for the latest release :) 10:02 < couf> absolutly 10:02 < quaid> we've hit our hour btw 10:02 < quaid> I can give Plone status in a few lines 10:03 < quaid> I asked Jon to get his requirements list from f-docs-l 10:03 < quaid> we need to heavily participate there, kick out a Wiki page later, etc. 10:03 < quaid> there is lots of existing stuff to work from 10:03 < quaid> he is waiting for Plone 3 release and availability 10:04 < couf> do we need to flesh out workflows etc? 10:04 < quaid> yep 10:04 * quaid pastes in Jon's email 10:04 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 10:04 * quaid pastes in Jon's email 10:04 < quaid> What I need from docs is a feature 10:04 < quaid> list. There are a lot of cool things we could do, but I would like to 10:04 < quaid> just do what we will actually use. Maybe something that would be helpful 10:04 < quaid> for everyone would be an example document workflow. Some example flow 10:04 < quaid> that shows how a document would make it from an end-users keyboard to 10:04 < quaid> our structured documentation platform. Some other things that would be 10:04 < quaid> helpful to me would be a draft of "where" we can edit documents from. 10:04 < quaid> Such, once a document is published to the platform.. does it leave the 10:04 < quaid> wiki (if that is where it was started)? Another question that is more 10:04 < quaid> technical, what VCS back-end are we wanting to use? What document 10:04 < quaid> storage format? Does anyone have any ideas on "states" we can put our 10:04 < quaid> documents into? How many teams will be working on a given document? How 10:04 < quaid> are we going to define roles? Are we going to be able to use FAS2? 10:04 * jmbuser is back 10:04 < quaid> </> 10:04 < couf> jmbuser: topic Plone update 10:04 < quaid> so, I asked him to bounce that to the list 10:05 < quaid> there is a certain amount of that existing under DocsProject/ 10:05 < quaid> and in our brains :) 10:05 < quaid> my only AOB 10:05 < quaid> is to say that it's time to start planning FDSCo elections and sucession stuff 10:05 < couf> Plone update -> list discussion 10:05 < quaid> aye 10:05 < quaid> heads up to those who missed it, RHT appointed me to the Project Board effective 1 July 10:06 < couf> <round of applause> 10:06 < quaid> coincidentally, I had already pledged to *not* run for FDSCo chair 10:06 < quaid> although I'll certainly run for the committee itself 10:06 < jmbuser> quaid: saw it - congrats 10:06 < quaid> thanks :) 10:07 < quaid> so, in the best interests of all, having me out of this seat without too much crossover is a good idea 10:07 < quaid> just so the chair here gets enough focus, which I don't give enough currently 10:07 < quaid> so, that was that, just that we need to pick a date, how about by next meeting? 10:07 < quaid> we can discuss on list as well 10:08 < couf> well yeah, the real elections would be in August-September (Feb + 6) 10:09 < couf> but we could use the intermediate to settle the new chair 10:09 < EvilBob> quaid: So you joining the board will mean that you will be at the next FUDCon, great 10:09 < jmbuser> quaid: Is there a rule for succession? 10:09 < quaid> hmm 10:09 < quaid> couf: oh, that long? 10:10 < quaid> I'm not trying to get out early :) 10:10 < quaid> I was thinking it was end of July 10:10 < EvilBob> the targeted release dates have been suggested 10:11 < quaid> ok 10:11 < quaid> how about we put this topic aside until the end of July 10:11 < quaid> it'll be here before we know it 10:11 < couf> aye 10:11 < EvilBob> I would hope that we would have Aug and Feb Elections 10:11 < quaid> 26 Aug is 6 months 10:11 < quaid> so it should be rolling by mid-August 10:11 < EvilBob> that would put our elections halfway between releases 10:11 < quaid> "Current schedule is the first two weeks in February and August," 10:12 < quaid> that is what the pages say 10:12 < EvilBob> right 10:12 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Policy/FDSCoElections 10:12 < couf> jep 10:12 < quaid> yeah, that was the point 10:12 < quaid> sorry, I forgot to read that page before talking it up here 10:12 < quaid> let's talk about this in 30 days 10:12 < quaid> any other bidness? 10:12 < jmbuser> +1 10:13 < EvilBob> If quaid needs/wants us to get a new chair before that I feel we should respect his wishes 10:13 < couf> EvilBob: +1 10:13 < jmbuser> +1 10:13 < glezos> +1 10:14 < EvilBob> the new chair would simply get an extra month or two IMO 10:14 < jmbuser> EvilBob: Is it an election or an appointment? 10:14 < couf> jmbuser: FDSCo decision 10:14 < quaid> true all of that 10:14 < quaid> I wasn't trying to squirm out early 10:14 < EvilBob> jmbuser: we had agreed that the FDSCo would choose their own leader 10:14 < quaid> I can wait 60 days 10:15 < quaid> but if you guys feel my attention is too split, let's fix it 10:15 < quaid> I dunnot yet what FPB is going to mean 10:15 < quaid> it might be the same plus a few additional meetings 10:15 < jmbuser> FDSCo decision is fine by me 10:15 < EvilBob> jmbuser: if someone is inteested perhaps a 2 month co-chair is a solution 10:15 < quaid> another good idea 10:15 < couf> yeah very good 10:15 < EvilBob> a breaking in period if you will 10:16 < couf> have a vice-chair like other-projects 10:16 < quaid> ah, yes 10:16 < quaid> we've gotten away with not doing that because, erm, RHT pays me to be on IRC during my work hours :) 10:16 < jmbuser> +1 10:16 < quaid> but it's not really fair to anyone, IMHO 10:17 < quaid> ok, steady on 10:17 < quaid> if there is nothing else ... 10:17 < EvilBob> rather than tabling this for a month how about we think on it for two weeks and adress ideas then 10:17 < EvilBob> a month is a long time 10:17 < couf> EvilBob: +1 10:18 < glezos> quaid: I've put up some issues concerning our docs source structure, but these could be discussed on-list 10:18 < EvilBob> if anyone is interested in being the new chair bring your resume to that meeting in two weeks 10:19 < EvilBob> Motion to close the meeting? 10:19 < couf> coolness 10:20 < quaid> EvilBob: good call 10:20 < couf> +1 10:20 < jmbuser> +1 10:20 * quaid notes for the Brits in the audience, "tabling" is being used in the American vernacular, "to put aside for discussion later" 10:21 < quaid> where in the Brit vernacular, 'tabling' means "to put the idea on the table right now for discussion" 10:21 < quaid> OK! 10:21 < EvilBob> interesting 10:21 < quaid> EvilBob: yeah, one of my favorites because of how (in)obvious it is 10:21 < quaid> more? 10:21 < quaid> no mas? 10:21 < couf> nope, close away 10:21 < quaid> deal 10:21 < quaid> 5 10:21 < quaid> 4 10:21 < EvilBob> wrap it up boss 10:21 < quaid> 3 10:21 < quaid> 2 10:21 < quaid> 1 10:21 < quaid> <tradition/> 10:21 < EvilBob> Happy New Year! 10:22 < quaid> </meeting>
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