HTML version available at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings/Minutes/IRCLog20070527 09:07 < quaid> <meeting> 09:07 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings#Agenda 09:07 < quaid> good morning (again) all 09:08 < megacoder> hello 09:08 * couf does a gang-wave 09:08 < McGiwer> howdy 09:08 < McGiwer> :) 09:08 < quaid> I'll do the log/summary again today; it's been useful for me 09:09 < quaid> when we get to the tasks list, we'll pick one of us to do the editing for the group 09:09 < couf> cool :-) 09:09 < McGiwer> ok! :> 09:09 < jmbuser> +1 09:09 < quaid> jmbuser: for the record before we get started, sorry Luis was all mean to you this week, although I *think* it wasn't really about you :) 09:09 < quaid> I've been trying to figure out a reply ... and not sure if there is 09:10 < jmbuser> quaid: Silence is golden :-) 09:10 < quaid> jmbuser: just remember, he is about to become a lawyer, so he'll be getting his perdition on Earth without any help from us 09:10 < quaid> right! 09:10 < quaid> moving right along ... 09:10 < jmbuser> jmbuser: Lawyers are people, too. 09:11 < quaid> worthy of pity 09:11 < quaid> capable of sin 09:11 < jmbuser> nuff said 09:11 < megacoder> jmbuser, that _is_ newsworthy! 09:11 < quaid> so, to the agenda ... 09:12 < quaid> paul, help me out ... i really want to do a final read through of the IG but haven't found time, are we "too late"? 09:15 < couf> quaid: he might not be around due to wife's birthday 09:16 < quaid> d'oh! 09:16 < quaid> sorry, i forgot that 09:16 * quaid stupidly waiting for no respoonse 09:17 < megacoder> nak 09:17 < quaid> I guess he put his answers in the Agenda then 09:17 < couf> yeah, it mentions "final draft" so you'll still have time to read through, I guess 09:17 < quaid> ... I'll find out about that later, see what the l10n status is 09:18 < quaid> ok, next 09:18 < quaid> jmbuser: do you want to define a final production schedule for the UG? 09:19 < quaid> not something set in stone, just something to work against 09:19 < jmbuser> quaid: Sure 09:19 < quaid> you could make a subpage DP/Schedule/UserGuide, for example 09:20 < jmbuser> quaid: ok - one big deadline or phases? 09:21 < quaid> well, there have to be some phases 09:21 < quaid> finished in wiki, converted to XML, finish that draft, then publish and drop for trans 09:21 < quaid> jmbuser: but any more granular than that, it's up to you all 09:22 < quaid> ok, and I think we need the same thing for the AG 09:22 < quaid> but we need to take it off the regular agenda, since we are pushing it out a bit to land between releases 09:22 < jmbuser> quaid: ok, any thoughts on a realistic date for "finished in wiki"? 09:23 < quaid> ... since we don't have a team formalized around it, per se ... 09:23 < couf> jmbuser: within 2-3 weeks? 09:23 < couf> quaid: +1 09:23 < quaid> yeah, try two weeks 09:23 * stickster drops in for a sec 09:23 < quaid> here's the thing ... we want to make it better than before, resolve as much of the bad stuff as we can 09:23 < stickster> IG copy is available at my page fp.o/PaulWFrields/Drafs 09:24 < quaid> so I might argue for a feature-based release of the UG v. a time-based release 09:24 < quaid> however! 09:24 < stickster> I resolved many bugs with it, but Rawhide has been difficult to test with recently 09:24 < jmbuser> couf: I do end-of-month reporting in my day job...and it's end of the month, unfortunately 09:24 < stickster> It is back today 09:24 < quaid> we don't want the kitten to die .. 09:24 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24 < quaid> so, I reckon we set an artificial deadline 09:24 < stickster> re IG: didn't make any special notice to l10n but some teams are keeping up, notably "pt" 09:24 < quaid> and see how much we can do in that timeframe, then call if we want to stop or continue 09:25 < quaid> stickster: ok 09:25 * stickster ducks out again, sorry to intersperse comments 09:25 < quaid> stickster: I'll make a point to read through ASAPso we can put it to bed 09:25 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 09:25 * quaid repeats for jmbuser 09:25 < quaid> we don't want the kitten to die .. 09:25 < quaid> so, I reckon we set an artificial deadline 09:25 < quaid> and see how much we can do in that timeframe, then call if we want to stop or continue 09:25 < couf> jmbuser: no problem, just an idea :-) 09:25 < quaid> jmbuser: so, a "time based release" that is influenced by how we feel the features are close to complete 09:25 * couf needs to drop for some minutes 09:26 < quaid> so, three weeks to give you the week you need here for $DAYJOB 09:26 < jmbuser> quaid: Sounds good 09:26 < quaid> I intend to do the Heavy Editing Hammer of Thor part, and I'll need a few more weeks to be able to do that anyway :) 09:26 < quaid> ok, then 09:27 < quaid> the relnotes are good 09:27 < quaid> all GOLD and stuff 09:27 < quaid> and looks like we'll have some zero-day updates 09:27 < quaid> I presume that means we'll update the package as well as push live to the Web 09:27 < quaid> now ... 09:27 < quaid> there is the Web-only update 09:27 < jmbuser> I would like to do the common apps/desktop-specific apps approach, allowing for "include" magic to create a GNOME and KDE Live Cd edition 09:28 -!- EvilBob [n=Robert@fedora/pdpc.sustaining.BobJensen] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28 < jmbuser> jmbuser (to wrap up the topic of FUG) 09:28 < quaid> I think we're happy with that approach (?) 09:28 < quaid> yes? 09:29 < quaid> i.e., if you choose a KDE install, it's going to install different defaults for certain things, and that is what we are documenting. 09:29 < jmbuser> quaid: Capture updates in the wiki first? 09:29 < quaid> jmbuser: for the relnotes? 09:29 < quaid> yeah, that was what I was pondering here 09:29 < quaid> yes, we need to i) diff the Wiki for the updates, ii) update the XML,and iii) publish from that 09:31 < McGiwer> hm 09:31 < McGiwer> is the final iso spin already done? 09:31 < McGiwer> for F7 release? 09:32 < quaid> yes 09:32 < McGiwer> theoretically it should be 09:32 < McGiwer> but from practice 09:32 < McGiwer> ... ;) 09:33 < McGiwer> ok 09:33 < quaid> ready to move on to tasks? 09:33 < McGiwer> yeah 09:33 < quaid> anything more on stuff to publish for F7? 09:34 * quaid waits a few seconds ... 09:34 < McGiwer> i think i'll translate the relnotes to Polish 09:34 < McGiwer> to be ready for the final release 09:34 < McGiwer> but only for web version 09:34 < McGiwer> as the iso spin is already done :) 09:35 < McGiwer> eof 09:35 < quaid> right 09:35 < quaid> they can go into an update of fedora-release-notes 09:35 < quaid> and people who make Live CD spins of the updated packages will get the Polish translation 09:36 < McGiwer> hmm, indeed 09:36 < McGiwer> good idea :) 09:36 < McGiwer> thx 09:36 < McGiwer> so ok, i think we can go on 09:36 < McGiwer> with the agenda 09:37 * couf comes back 09:38 < couf> quaid: one thing, should we add a relnotes link on the static pages? 09:39 < quaid> ah, good question ... 09:39 < couf> meaning, the static homepage that is (not docs) 09:39 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/_/ 09:39 < quaid> that is where the F-7 changes are being worked out 09:39 < quaid> where would we want to put a link? under TOOLS? 09:40 < McGiwer> hm 09:40 < McGiwer> could be 09:40 * megacoder doesn't think folk should need to drill for that 09:41 < couf> yeah tools or maybe on the same level as the "Get it now"-links 09:41 < quaid> "Release Notes" 09:41 < glezos> btw, great work with the re-engineering of the homepage (i'm sure quaid had something to do with it too) 09:42 < megacoder> "get it now" +1 09:42 < glezos> I have to go guys, if there is something I am needed, ask away, otherwise I'll respond to the list 09:42 < McGiwer> hmm, Get it now would be better 09:42 < McGiwer> than tools, i think 09:42 < McGiwer> ;] 09:43 < McGiwer> so +1 for "Get it now" 09:44 < quaid> glezos: yo, good to see you around; I helped steer the monkeys, ricky zhou and mizmo did all the CSS lifting for sure 09:44 < quaid> I'll try Get it now and we'll see how it looks 09:45 < quaid> well, that is not the same thing as Get it now, though 09:45 < quaid> we'll keep looking 09:45 < quaid> moving along to the Tasks List ... 09:45 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks 09:46 < quaid> so, that is a bug, ugly beast 09:46 < quaid> s/bug/big/ 09:46 -!- glezos [n=d@fedora/glezos] has quit ["runnin runnin runnin..."] 09:47 < couf> who's gonna update it? 09:47 < quaid> heh 09:47 < quaid> I'm going to keep working on this stuff after we close, so unless anyone else is hanging around ... 09:48 < quaid> I'll just go ahead and do the edit this week 09:48 < quaid> s/edit/edit and update/ 09:48 < quaid> so, ideas to make it work better ... 09:48 < McGiwer> do u need help? 09:48 < quaid> McGiwer: yes, in that we all need to talk about what changes to make to it 09:49 < couf> quaid: any way, we can do something like happend with the */Join stuff 09:49 < quaid> make sub-pages? 09:50 < McGiwer> hmm 09:50 < couf> probably yeah, and keep the main tasklist very small (KISS) 09:50 < quaid> like .... 09:50 < couf> as in, not scaring away people 09:50 < McGiwer> we could create some main points 09:50 < quaid> DP/Tasks/Easy ? 09:50 < jmbuser> Prioritize 09:50 * stickster stops in for 60 sec 09:50 < McGiwer> and then connect to the main points some sub-tasks 09:50 < McGiwer> :> 09:50 < stickster> quaid: -1 09:51 < couf> ow yeah, that's a different approach, may be better 09:51 < stickster> quaid: DP/Tasks/Difficult 09:51 < quaid> jmbuser: but we can't leave it as one big list, though 09:51 < stickster> bury the things for experts, not the other way 'round 09:51 < quaid> right 09:51 < couf> stickster: +1 09:51 < jmbuser> quaid: Agreed 09:51 < quaid> well, not buried as much .. 09:51 < quaid> ok, so then how about 09:51 -!- [splinux] [n=splinux@fedora/splinux] has joined #fedora-docs 09:51 < quaid> we divide by difficulty, then use Include() to pull in the /Easy tasks to be front-and-center? 09:52 < quaid> right below a Table of Contents 09:52 < jmbuser> quaid:+1 09:52 < quaid> do we want to group by type? 09:52 < McGiwer> great! 09:52 < McGiwer> :) 09:52 < couf> hmm, not sure 09:52 < McGiwer> +1 for quaid's idea 09:52 < quaid> i.e., "short writing" "long writing" 09:52 < quaid> "editing" "tools" etc. 09:52 < McGiwer> the second 09:52 < McGiwer> rather 09:52 < McGiwer> editing, tools etc. 09:53 < couf> seems to really bury the "more difficult" stuff 09:53 < couf> I'd use the main tasks as a "You want it Easy -> check out this page and you might wanna learn a+b+c (learn will working)" 09:54 < quaid> that argues for *not* displaying any tasks on that page, but having it be a pointer to sub-pages 09:54 < couf> yeah, that's the only drawback 09:55 < quaid> we could pull the list in below, so it is still there v. a click deeper 09:55 < couf> which seems to be more like the join-page should look like 09:56 < McGiwer> hm 09:56 < quaid> ToC 09:56 < quaid> How To Take a Task 09:56 < quaid> Easy Tasks 09:56 < quaid> Challenging Tasks 09:56 < quaid> Hard Tasks 09:56 < quaid> == How to ... == 09:56 < quaid> [[Include(Easy)]] 09:56 < McGiwer> ;d 09:56 < McGiwer> :) 09:57 * stickster likes only listing Easy tasks, than linking at the bottom "If you are looking for something more challenging, *go here*" 09:57 < stickster> repeat as necessary 09:57 < couf> quaid: okay seems sane +1 09:57 < quaid> stickster: I think that is nearly the same thing ... 09:57 < quaid> maybe move the How to around 09:58 < McGiwer> hmm, and what about listing the categories 09:58 < McGiwer> and then, inside 09:58 < McGiwer> divide it to easy and more challenging tasks? 09:58 < quaid> i think organize the list themselves by categories 09:58 < quaid> oic 09:58 < quaid> you mean, "Easy Editing". "Easy Writing", etc 09:59 < quaid> or rather, "Editing > Easy, Editing > Hard" 09:59 < quaid> I guess my concern there is ... putting scary stuff in front of new people :) 09:59 < McGiwer> i mean sth like this: 10:00 < McGiwer> ToC 10:00 < couf> aye, I'd even think the word "edit" will be scary 10:00 < McGiwer> one category 10:00 < McGiwer> second category 10:00 < McGiwer> and inside one category 10:00 < McGiwer> == Easy stuff == 10:00 < McGiwer> == More challenging stuff == 10:00 < McGiwer> ;d 10:00 < McGiwer> :) 10:01 < couf> aah, just two categories 10:01 < quaid> that is going to make a list that is too long, though 10:01 < JonRob> one big improvement that is really easy - remove the finished tasks? 10:01 < McGiwer> couf no 10:01 < McGiwer> more catogories 10:01 < McGiwer> this is just an example 10:01 < McGiwer> hmm 10:01 < couf> JonRob: remove, or move somewhere else? 10:02 < quaid> JonRob: sure, move to another page 10:02 < McGiwer> or just move it to the end of the list 10:02 < McGiwer> or create a new category 10:02 < McGiwer> "Finished" 10:02 < McGiwer> or "Done" 10:03 < JonRob> are you thinking of still keeping the table layout? 10:03 < couf> okay, so we'll have Tasks/Easy, Tasks/Challenge, Task/Difficult, Task/Finished 10:03 < McGiwer> look here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks 10:04 < McGiwer> there are Closed/Completed Tasks 10:04 < couf> JonRob: good question 10:04 < McGiwer> but in Open tasks 10:04 < McGiwer> thera are still some remaining 10:04 * quaid is not sure how to do this without a table, though 10:04 < McGiwer> and there's a "Done" comment 10:04 < McGiwer> i would be for a table layout 10:04 < JonRob> quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join 10:05 < couf> if we keep the list very small, it's doable without table 10:05 < JonRob> i think this layout works well 10:05 < JonRob> with a ToC 10:05 < couf> JonRob: +1 10:06 < McGiwer> yep, if it's very small 10:06 < McGiwer> :) 10:06 < McGiwer> hmm, brb 10:06 < McGiwer> i have guests 10:06 < McGiwer> :| 10:06 < McGiwer> brb 10:06 < quaid> ok, we can try the list format 10:06 < quaid> it is friendlier 10:06 < JonRob> quaid: sounding enthusiastic! 10:09 < jmbuser> quaid: +1 10:09 < McGiwer> ok, re 10:10 < couf> so what is "Easy"? 10:10 * quaid finishes brushing a little girl's hair 10:10 < quaid> yeah, what is easy 10:11 < quaid> I'm thinking that once we have the right structure, it becomes more obvious what goes where 10:11 < couf> wiki = easy, xml = challenging 10:11 < jmbuser> couf: +1 10:11 < quaid> only if you don't know XML already 10:11 < quaid> actually 10:11 < couf> true that 10:11 < quaid> I think XML is easier for those who know XHTML than a Wiki can be :) 10:12 < quaid> brb, one minute 10:12 < couf> heh, that's a sweeter approach 10:12 < couf> although, that would mean learning CVS for some, which could be a challenge 10:12 < jmbuser> GUI-oriented people like the wiki, CLI-oriented people (AKA developers) like XML 10:13 < JonRob> is there a huge difference between wiki and xml!? besides cvs 10:14 < couf> JonRob: xml is more like xhtml like quaid mentioned above, a bit more formal 10:14 < JonRob> (this is something i'd like to learn at some point :D) 10:15 < couf> the wiki is just text which gets parsed 10:15 < JonRob> couf: thanks 10:15 < couf> JonRob: please do, the more people who know XML, the better :-) 10:15 < jmbuser> XML is good in that it can be used to create many different formats from the same source 10:16 < JonRob> what scares me off it at the min is cvs i think 10:16 < JonRob> and messing up docs! 10:16 < quaid> cvs is easy, if you are worried, use a GUI CVS client :) 10:16 < JonRob> (sorry for distracting the convo, can talk about this another time!) 10:16 < quaid> no, it's poignant, actually 10:16 < jmbuser> Think of cvs as check-in and check-out of docs 10:16 < couf> JonRob: the messing up part is where cvs is so usefull 10:17 < quaid> what is "Easy"? 10:17 < quaid> we cater to the idea that Wiki == easier 10:17 < quaid> and we'll organize around that principle 10:17 < quaid> but it is not necc. true :) 10:17 < couf> aye 10:18 < quaid> ok, so the only decisions is ... 10:18 * quaid writes the two options: 10:18 < quaid> 1. organize by challenge level (easy, hard), then within that have categories (writing, editing, etc.) 10:18 < quaid> 2. organize by category, then within that by challenge level 10:19 < couf> 1st approach seems better, if one wants to do something, one will want to do say something easy 10:19 < couf> not have to dive into "writer" vs "editor" 10:20 < quaid> I think I agree because I think people think of themselves as part of a multiple role, not just one role 10:20 < couf> at first glance 10:20 < JonRob> some people might consider themselves great writers tho, but terrible editors 10:20 < quaid> "sure I develop, i also test, release, etc.) 10:20 < JonRob> so if they went to writer, they might take on a harder task then normally 10:20 < couf> quaid: +1 10:20 < quaid> "so if they want to writer" he heh 10:20 * quaid pokes fun at JonRob 10:20 < JonRob> ooops 10:22 < couf> btw, we should let go of the "open" - "assinged" distinction 10:22 < couf> let people get into a task that is already assinged 10:22 < JonRob> couf +1 10:22 < couf> s/assinged/assigned 10:23 < couf> (twice) 10:24 < couf> We do need one hitman per task 10:24 < quaid> ok 10:24 < McGiwer> ok, guys 10:24 < McGiwer> i'll read the log later 10:25 < McGiwer> i gotta go 10:25 < McGiwer> i'll send my ideas to the list 10:25 < McGiwer> bye 10:25 < quaid> we're done I thnk 10:25 < McGiwer> ahm, ok 10:25 < McGiwer> :) 10:25 < McGiwer> so bfj 10:25 < McGiwer> bfn 10:25 < McGiwer> ;) 10:25 < quaid> we'll org by difficulty, drop the open/assigned distirnction 10:25 < quaid> and do some light categorization but not so as to scare people off 10:25 < quaid> like "Skills used in this task" "Writing, editing, research" 10:26 < couf> +1 10:27 < couf> note to all (including myself): the hitmen on the task should *not* be only quaid and stickster 10:28 < quaid> heh 10:29 < quaid> that's just cruft from old lists, we'll leave those more open 10:29 < quaid> ok, that should do it 10:29 < quaid> I'll work on that list that way, see where it takes us 10:29 < quaid> since it is just couf and JonRob and I left ... 10:29 < quaid> anything else? 10:30 < JonRob> not that i know off 10:30 < JonRob> didn't notice everyone else leaving! 10:30 < couf> who's publishing the relnotes, I might have missed that? 10:32 < quaid> oh, hmm 10:32 < quaid> unfortunately the list of who can is quite small, not by design 10:32 * quaid wonders if there is time to update the CSS for docs.fp.o 10:33 < JonRob> quaid: what does that involve? i can do css if it helps 10:33 < quaid> JonRob: yes, that mainly 10:33 < quaid> JonRob: are you on #fedora-admin? 10:33 < JonRob> nope 10:34 < quaid> I was just asking riczho, who worked on the CSS for the new front page, if he thought it was possible 10:34 < quaid> we'd want to work with him to make it happen faster 10:34 < quaid> that said, we can update the CSS anytime we want :) 10:34 < JonRob> would be cool to have it in place for f7 10:34 < couf> yeah, but timing is quite short 10:34 < JonRob> mm...4 days? 10:34 < quaid> couf: probably stickster will do it, just because it is faster and easier to do it ourselves than to teach a deprecated publishing system :) 10:35 < quaid> the problem is the static v. SSI, I think 10:35 < couf> quaid: sure, just wondering 10:35 < quaid> docs.fp.o is all PHP SSI built, where the other is static 10:35 < quaid> ok, closing meeting 10:35 < quaid> 5 10:35 < quaid> 4 10:35 < quaid> 3 10:35 < quaid> 2 10:35 < quaid> 1 10:35 < quaid> </meeting>
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