09:15 < quaid> <meeting> 09:15 < glezos> got carried away in a chinese buffet :) 09:16 < quaid> BobJensen. glezos, couf_away, stickster_afk good morning 09:16 < BobJensen> Morning Karsten 09:16 < glezos> Agenda is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings 09:16 * BobJensen has company so will be here hit and miss 09:17 < quaid> ok, I can handle the first item easily 09:17 < quaid> we got the final release notes dropped for translation yesterday, it ended up only being about 12 hours late 09:18 < quaid> Paul actually had the POT/PO updated only a few hours after midnight UTC, but i did a final edit pass since it was the literally last chance for the ISO. 09:18 < quaid> from here, we'll track changes for the Web-only update, which will also include a chance to update translations for the Web. 09:18 < quaid> and the cycle continues ... 09:19 < glezos> quaid: that's not a problem since translators can start working on the first right away 09:19 * quaid also sent out a whiney, 3 am blog post on the subject 09:19 < quaid> oh, on a related subject 09:20 < quaid> we had a few small weirdnesses, but the notes and translations all made it into test4 just fine, middle of last week 09:20 < quaid> the schedule here is a bit brutal, because of the extra days we added for trans this time. 09:21 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 09:21 < jmbuser> Sorry I'm late... 09:21 < glezos> quaid: we can study when did our l10n contributors committed their translations (were they on the first 2 days or on the last 2 days, weekdays or weekends) to see if the extra days were used after all. 09:21 < quaid> ok! good idea 09:22 < BobJensen> +1 09:22 < quaid> jmbuser: no worries, better safe than sorry :) 09:22 -!- hers [n=chatzill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 09:22 < quaid> jmbuser: we started a little bit later and are just on the first topic 09:22 * quaid blasts current log of meeting to jmbuser in pm 09:24 < quaid> ok, that seems a completed topic :) 09:24 < jmbuser> quaid: thanks 09:24 * quaid is working on closing f-dsco-l at this moment, too 09:25 < glezos> quaid: fedora-dsco-list? 09:25 -!- hers [n=chatzill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Client Quit] 09:25 < quaid> glezos: yes 09:25 < quaid> ok, so, moving on ... 09:26 < jmbuser> BTW, I want to thanks everyone, especially quaid, stickster 09:26 < JonRob> +1 09:26 < quaid> I didn't want to dive into a long discussion of recruiting and retaining for the project 09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: thanks :) 09:26 < quaid> I think the R&R discussion is good for the list 09:27 < quaid> but I wanted to address it enough so that those here are thinking about it, and will participate in the discussion 09:28 < quaid> any thoughts on the subject for here? 09:29 < glezos> quaid: I remember a similar discussion a month ago and a suggestion from me: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00090.html 09:29 < quaid> ok, making it easier to contribute is always a good idea :) 09:30 < quaid> some stuff improves with Wiki changes, etc. 09:30 < JonRob> i definately feel, as a new member here, that some kind of a more clear todo list would be a good idea 09:31 < glezos> for retaining, two good ways to make it happen could be to make ideas of new members easier to happen and to make them maintainers of them, again, early on. 09:31 < quaid> one of my concerns is with existing projects, though, and starting more new projects isn't going to help that as much. 09:31 < glezos> JonRob: +1. Our TaskSchedule page is a mess and shows stuff we've been working for months but didn't achieve (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/TaskSchedule) 09:32 < quaid> maybe step 1 is to straighten out the current task needs before making it easier to start new stuff :) 09:32 < JonRob> quiad: yes 09:32 < quaid> also, that is an FDSCo task schedule 09:32 < quaid> not a project task schedule 09:32 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Tasks 09:32 < quaid> that is a methodology document! 09:32 < quaid> eek 09:33 < glezos> quaid: didn't know about that. :) (the title of the page reads "Fedora Docs Open Tasks") 09:33 < quaid> seems like a good place to start would be to distill and organize tasks there, right? 09:33 < quaid> glezos: right, that is also a problem :) 09:33 < jmbuser> quaid: Despite stickster's heroic efforts, I'm still a little fuzzy on the Beats process :-) 09:33 < quaid> jmbuser: you mean, the technical weenie parts, or the social content gathering parts/ 09:33 < glezos> quaid: people see those tasks and say "no way I could help with those stuff!" 09:33 < jmbuser> quaid: the former 09:34 < quaid> ok, so task 1 from this meeting is: 09:34 < quaid> 1. Rework DP/SC/TaskSchedule and DP/Tasks so the former is all for FDSCo and obvious, and the latter is generic and well pointed at 09:35 < glezos> quaid: is there a real need to separate the two? 09:35 < quaid> good question 09:35 < glezos> I mean, both of them are FDP tasks, it's just that some of them need more experience. 09:35 < quaid> good point 09:35 < quaid> that is probably an outfall of sometimes on FDSCo would be avaialble to do stuff 09:36 < JonRob> if you put them together at least have them under clear headings, otherwise could be overwhelming/scary 09:36 < glezos> yup 09:36 < quaid> maybe a column, "Expertise level required" 09:36 < JonRob> something similar to the layout of the new join page? 09:37 < quaid> JonRob: you mean the master Join page? wiki/Join 09:37 < JonRob> yeah 09:37 < quaid> perhaps, although that design seems to work great for directing desire, but not as much for tracking tasks 09:38 < JonRob> the clear headings with sharp bullet points make it accessible though 09:38 < quaid> ah, I see 09:39 < JonRob> something which some sort of a todo list needs to be to make new users feel they can really bite 09:39 < quaid> ok, we'll start with reworking and combining those pages into one; means retiring the TaskSchedule most likely since that is an obscure URL 09:39 < quaid> anything else? or to the list with this discussion? 09:40 < glezos> the more clear we are on what we *are* doing and what we *want* to do (and how important/urgent) each task is, the better picture new and experienced members would choose where to turn their attention to 09:40 < glezos> ok for the list.. 09:40 < quaid> +1 09:40 < jmbuser> quaid: proceed 09:40 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007 09:40 < quaid> for those who aren't aware 09:40 < quaid> we have two main projects there, and a closely related to us one (man/info publication) 09:41 < glezos> yay for Fedora Docs! :) 09:41 < quaid> :) 09:41 < quaid> so, just be aware that Google gave 2 extra months at the beginning for 09:41 < jmbuser> glezos: Congrats on your winning entry 09:41 < quaid> getting people connected into the projects early 09:42 < quaid> so, we know what glezos is doing, that has been well discussed 09:42 < glezos> jmbuser: thanks :) 09:42 < quaid> what daMaestro (JonathanSteffan) is doing is the magic between Plone and the rest of our tools 09:43 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/JonathanSteffan 09:43 < quaid> you can read all the cracky ideas there :) 09:43 < glezos> quaid: unfortunately, I won't be able to really get my hands on code until the end of May. However we could start some work on setting up the domain, discussing the details etc. 09:43 < quaid> glezos: that's to be expected, sure 09:43 < quaid> glezos: you are already ahead of the curve anyway :) 09:44 < quaid> the extra time really serves people where the student is brand new to the project 09:44 < glezos> yup 09:44 < quaid> there is one other interesting thing we're going to be seeing worked out onlist soon, I hope 09:44 < quaid> a student in a different summer of code project is also working on the man/info project 09:44 < quaid> from a different angle 09:44 < quaid> so we're likely to send up with a couple of solutions there. 09:45 < glezos> cool 09:45 < jmbuser> excellent 09:45 < quaid> yeah, unfortunately they are not allowed to work together, a strange irony of the SoC process 09:45 < jmbuser> hmmmmm 09:46 < quaid> any questions here, or shall we move on to discuss F7 guides? 09:46 < jmbuser> quaid: nothing wrong with interfacing independently with FDP? 09:47 < quaid> nope 09:47 < quaid> don't think so 09:48 < jmbuser> quaid: that's good 09:48 < quaid> we'll see how it progresses, maybe a natural break occurs to make it modular v. two parallel projects, and we get one to work on part A, the other on part B 09:48 < quaid> I haven't contacted the other mentor for this yet 09:51 < glezos> shall we move on? 09:51 < jmbuser> +1 09:51 < quaid> thx, yes 09:51 * quaid is also making roll-up pancakes :) 09:51 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Schedule#guides-schedule 09:52 < quaid> so, that is for any guides that wanted to be translated and shipped with F7 09:53 < jmbuser> quaid: so any changes to the DUG are for next release? 09:54 < quaid> uh, well 09:54 < quaid> that is only if we want to ship with the release 09:54 < quaid> maybe that is unrealistic 09:54 < glezos> too bad :( 09:54 < quaid> or rather, it is obviously unrealistic now :) 09:54 < quaid> well, we can ship non-trans with the release 09:54 < quaid> at least the DUG is moving forward 09:55 < JonRob> what's happening with the DUG after last meeting? or is that a topic for the list? 09:57 < quaid> list topic, I reckon 09:57 < jmbuser> JonRob: I think so, too 09:57 < quaid> so, maybe checking on the IG and AG are both good list topics 09:58 < glezos> quaid: slightly off-topic: do we have an estimation for a working Plone installation? 09:58 < quaid> glezos: fairly soon, in terms of installed to work with; mmcgrath has it on his task list right now, aiui 09:58 < glezos> I'm asking to see how soon could we start into resolving some of the fragmentation we have in our various Docs 09:59 < quaid> it will be later in the Summer for magic to start happening 09:59 < glezos> ok, thanks 10:01 < glezos> anything else to be added before moving to L10N? 10:01 < quaid> nope 10:01 < glezos> okie 10:02 < glezos> so, *some* stats for our translations is at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Translation/Statistics 10:02 < glezos> not too helpful probably (guides are not mentioned there) but quite some translators have requested access to the cvsl10n group 10:03 < glezos> One of the tasks we could have for this week, as mentioned earlier, is to see when translations for relnotes were submitted to see how many days translators actually need 10:04 < glezos> Since we don't yet have a stats page, some reminders to the -trans-list about urgent docs needing translations, and generally, updates on our docs, could be very useful 10:05 < jmbuser> glezos: Are the stats something you are developing further this summer? 10:05 < quaid> ok, good point 10:05 < glezos> jmbuser: yes, it's a major part of the GSoC project. 10:05 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2007/DimitrisGlezos 10:06 < quaid> details there 10:06 < glezos> quaid: the more updates the better. Even one-liners; the l10n team actually feels a bit un-informed about doc/app updates :) 10:06 * jmbuser thinks updates and stats are good 10:06 < quaid> ok! 10:06 < quaid> maybe a daily or every-other-day update at this point would be good, sure 10:07 < quaid> glezos: here is why i am shy ... I have written often to f-trans-l without a response, so i don't know when it helps that i email, and I don't want people to burn out on seeing my address :) 10:07 < glezos> quaid: have you checked about responses in the form of CVS commits? 10:08 < glezos> I mean, Paul wrote recently about reverting the xml2po flag but I didn't reply to him that I updated the greek translation of docs-common 10:09 < glezos> One final point that recently concerns me is that of translation of the Website (Wiki for now) in general. We have been absolutely horrible in this respect b/c the wiki simply lacks a l10n workflow but I hope that Plone will fix this. 10:09 < quaid> hmm, ok 10:09 < quaid> how? 10:09 < quaid> how will Plone fix this? 10:10 < glezos> it supports l10n for every page 10:10 < quaid> are you thinking we'll move to the Plone Wiki tool from Moin? 10:10 < glezos> quaid: no, I am not conerned in translating every wiki page, just the important ones 10:11 < quaid> ok 10:11 < quaid> ah! good point 10:11 < glezos> at some point we will need to decide what will be transferred to Plone, right? Like GNOME, they have gnome.org but also a wiki at live.gnome.org 10:11 < quaid> we need to identify pages that need to move from Wiki to Plone 10:11 < quaid> right 10:11 * mmcgrath notes we can have a production plone instance very soon. 10:11 < jmbuser> Both moinmoin and plone have their uses 10:11 < quaid> this is something we can start to do before daMaestro starts his thing, i think 10:11 < mmcgrath> pre F7. 10:12 < glezos> quaid: sure. Also, we'd need to see how we are going to implement docs.fedoraproject.org (separate Plone instance? etc) 10:12 < glezos> anyway, this falls in the scope of the Websites Project I guess. 10:12 < quaid> probably a dive into a specific location in Plone 10:12 < quaid> yeah 10:14 < glezos> I'm through with what is on my mind about Docs+L10N 10:14 < quaid> mmcgrath: cool 10:14 < quaid> sorry 10:14 < quaid> that wasn't directed at mmcgrath actually :) 10:15 < quaid> ok, anything else? 10:16 * quaid should be able to do the log and summary again this week 10:16 < quaid> already working on it :) 10:16 < glezos> quaid: great, thanks 10:16 < jmbuser> quaid: Thanks 10:16 < JonRob> awesome :D 10:17 < quaid> sorry I'm such a crappy project manager, btw, it's not my strongest suit :) 10:17 < quaid> if it were, I know FDP would be in a bit better shape 10:17 < glezos> quaid: how much better? :) 10:17 * quaid contemplates recruiting poelstra to help 10:17 < quaid> glezos: different-better :) 10:18 * glezos should return to study now. ta ta guys 10:18 < quaid> actuallly ... I'll talk with John about FDP being an early adopter of his PM methodologies 10:18 < quaid> we're good at that :) 10:18 < quaid> yep, we can finish 10:18 < quaid> </meeting>
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