= IRC Log = 09:06 < quaid> <meeting> 09:06 < quaid> and good morning, and welcome back jmbuser 09:07 < jmbuser> quaid: my eyes read docs but my brain hears meeting 09:07 < quaid> agenda at ... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/Meetings 09:07 < jmbuser> quaid: nice to be back 09:07 < quaid> jmbuser: heh, no vacation quite like the end of vacation. 09:08 < robertjs> Good morning mates, my name is Robert and i'm a brand-new member of the docs project. 09:09 < jmbuser> robertjs: Greetings, Robert 09:09 < quaid> robertjs: good morning :) 09:09 < kiluawuyu> me, too :) 09:10 < robertjs> Thanks to all :) 09:10 < jmbuser> kiluawuyu: Good day to you 09:10 < kiluawuyu> Thanks a lot :D 09:11 * quaid updates the agenda a bit 09:11 < quaid> 1. 09:11 -!- Irssi: Pasting 6 lines to #fedora-docs. Press Ctrl-K if you wish to do this or Ctrl-C to cancel. 09:12 < quaid> Finalize name and structure of Fedora 7 edition of Desktop User Guide - JohnBabich 09:12 < quaid> 2. Status of delivery test4 relese notes 09:12 < quaid> 3. GSoC thinking 09:12 < quaid> 4. Admin Guide discussion 09:12 < quaid> 5. L10N other 09:12 < quaid> something like that :) 09:12 < quaid> jmbuser: so, lots of DUG discussion, etc. How are you feeling about it all? 09:15 * quaid wonders if we lost jmbuser's 'net connection 09:15 < robertjs> :p 09:16 * quaid goes to 'cvs up -d' the release-notes module to see how that is in the meantime 09:16 < kiluawuyu> Do we need to add some other help document into DUG if typical error occurs? 09:16 < robertjs> jmbuser: Are you there? 09:16 < quaid> yeah, probably a dropped connection 09:17 < BobJensen-Away> I am really sorry I got my self "triple booked" this morning 09:17 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: hey, quick q for you 09:17 < BobJensen-Away> quaid: I should have about 15 minutes 09:17 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: since this is a test release, are we looser on the rules about "how much % translated" 09:17 < quaid> for the release notes 09:18 < BobJensen-Away> quaid: Yes, we are only hard core on the final 09:18 < quaid> I think some of what I see here is false fuzziness anyway, from the entities reversal 09:18 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: +1 09:18 < BobJensen-Away> as a result some may be in the test4 partially completed but not included in final if no progress is made 09:19 < BobJensen-Away> IIRC we had a 90% rule? is that correct for final? 09:19 < quaid> yes 09:19 < quaid> we may want to ask our L10n experts if that is reasonable, just be sure 09:19 < quaid> (we can follow up on that separately) 09:19 < BobJensen-Away> +1 to that 09:20 < BobJensen-Away> I like "any attempt" to be in the tests as a way of encouraging the translators 09:20 < quaid> yes 09:21 < quaid> it looks like we are a day ahead of schedule, I think the releases schedule bumped up by a day 09:22 * quaid is working on agenda item 2 in case it isn't clear 09:22 < quaid> making sure we are ready to deliver the release-notes package in time for test4 09:22 < quaid> (also the about-fedora and homepage modules) 09:23 < BobJensen-Away> quaid: RE: about-fedora 09:23 < BobJensen-Away> did we find a solution to the issue with that? 09:24 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: I *think* we have something working, but I forget the details 09:24 * quaid writes an email of a few questions for stickster_afk 09:24 < BobJensen-Away> OK, just checking, I was a little out of the loop on that item 09:24 < quaid> no worries, me too :) 09:25 -!- jmbuser_ [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 09:25 < quaid> et voila! 09:25 < BobJensen-Away> We are checking out a new camping area this morning for our first campout planned for June 8 09:25 < jmbuser_> I'm back 09:25 < quaid> un bad net connection 09:25 * quaid high-5s BobJensen-Away 09:25 < quaid> excellent 09:25 < jmbuser_> Was it just me? 09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: yep 09:26 < quaid> jmbuser: we just finished with agenda item 2, held on for your return ... 09:26 < BobJensen-Away> My ride is just about here so i am going to take off 09:26 < quaid> I know how your connection can be at times 09:26 < jmbuser_> quaid: Apologies for my stinking ISP 09:26 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: thanks, see you 09:26 < quaid> jmbuser_: so, let me dig up my opening question for you ... 09:27 < quaid> jmbuser: so, lots of DUG discussion, etc. How are you feeling about it all? 09:27 * quaid == king of open questions 09:29 < jmbuser_> I would like to get agreement from everyone on the DUG (or new name to be determined) that we should have one doc with different sections covering the default (GNOME) and including KDE and (perhaps) Xfce. There would be common topics such as OpenOffice.org and Firefox. 09:29 < jmbuser_> agreed? 09:30 * jmbuser_ waits for input 09:30 * quaid +1 09:30 < quaid> but I was pretty clear abou that on list :) 09:31 < JonRob> +1 09:31 < JonRob> (but i must run...heading out to a concert) 09:31 < JonRob> have fun 09:31 -!- JonRob [n=jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has left #fedora-docs [] 09:31 < jmbuser_> It will be necessary to explain what a desktop (window manager) is and that GNOME is the default 09:32 < quaid> we'll find a way 09:32 < quaid> I had one question/thought ... would it help to have ... a checklist of what needs to be done in a section for it to be task-oriented v. reference-oriented 09:33 < quaid> and a list of all sections and how much of that is completed, etc. 09:33 < jmbuser_> Agreed 09:33 < robertjs> This initial set of apps sounds good to start. The main usage is Desktop windows and panels, Web browsers and office suite. 09:33 < quaid> checklist == derived from recent reviews and discussions 09:33 < jmbuser_> Now for the name - should we keep it Desktop User Guide or change it to something else, like Fedora New User Guide? 09:34 < robertjs> Humm... 09:35 < kiluawuyu> I think it's better to have "fedora" within the name~~ 09:35 < jmbuser_> I will prepare an outline and a checklist for people to track progress 09:35 < quaid> or ... Fedora User Guide and show "expert" sections as incomplete? 09:35 < BobJensen-Away> Is the document 100% fedora specific? 09:35 < quaid> +1 to Fedora in the name, that seems solid 09:36 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: yes, in that it is only what can appear in the distro (OOo, Fx, etc.) 09:36 < jmbuser_> +1 on Fedora in the name 09:36 < BobJensen-Away> Could it be used as the base for a generic linux users document? 09:36 < robertjs> My oppinion is that Fedora User Guide is better to the goal of manual. 09:36 < kiluawuyu> Linux users document maybe too big 09:36 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: it could, although those exist ... but there is some value in that, if we can connect across to other projects 09:36 < jmbuser_> Fedora User Guide (with possible Advanced sections added in the future) sounds good to me 09:37 < kiluawuyu> me too~ 09:37 * couf comes back 09:37 < BobJensen-Away> See my thinking is if we keep s somewhat generic name then distros based on Fedora could also make use of it 09:37 < quaid> jmbuser_: how about we specify e.g. three tasks to complete with each tool and how to do it? or some decision on tasks that can be described 09:37 < quaid> BobJensen-Away: they can rename it :) 09:37 < robertjs> jmbuser: Like some advanced settings or some basic command line topics? 09:37 < quaid> well, one thing that is true ... 09:37 < jmbuser_> The challenge is to meet our immediate need for Fedora while keeping it generic enough for upstream 09:38 < quaid> we have considered that *all* of the smaller guides 09:38 < quaid> can be stitched together into one Fedora Guide 09:38 < quaid> and the DUG == new users section 09:38 < quaid> ... and that is a goal of the project 09:38 < BobJensen-Away> OK ride is now here, I I just want it to be known that keeping the name "Fedora" out of the title would be a good thing in generaljust for the big picture 09:40 < quaid> I don't think it's needed 09:40 < quaid> since the title can be changed by downstream 09:40 < quaid> OPL and all that 09:40 < BobJensen-Away> that is just My opinion 09:41 * jmbuser_ is considering the options 09:41 < couf> quaid: +1 09:41 < jmbuser_> I agree that Fedora should stay in the title 09:43 < jmbuser_> Three tasks: 1. Common topics (OpenOffice.org, Firefox, etc.) 09:43 < jmbuser_> 2. GNOME apps presented as default apps 09:44 < jmbuser_> 3. KDE apps given as alternate apps (Konqueror, for example) 09:45 * jmbuser_ awaits response 09:45 < jmbuser_> Suggestion for new title: Fedora User Guide (emphasis on beginners) 09:45 < jmbuser_> agreed? 09:45 < kiluawuyu> agree 09:46 < couf> hmm, I wouldn't do that: KDE users will like to see just the default kde-apps and not get confronted with: 'hey konqueror is an alternative" 09:46 < kiluawuyu> Fedora User Guide with Desktop user and system administrator? 09:47 < jmbuser_> couf: I like KDE apps, but historically it's been a GNOME desktop 09:47 < couf> +1 to FUG 09:47 < couf> jmbuser_: true, but we're getting a kde spin this time, with *just* kde on it 09:47 < quaid> couf: it's more like ... KDE is not default, here is KDE 09:47 < quaid> ah 09:47 < quaid> or KDE is default :) 09:48 < quaid> ok, so neither is an alternative in the sense of "lesser" but in the sense of "other" 09:48 < couf> aye 09:48 < robertjs> We can keep KDE apps without use the word "alternative", just presenting it as more one free choice. 09:48 < couf> like divide each chapter into a gnome part and kde part 09:49 < jmbuser_> System Administrator Guide would be a separate doc 09:49 < kiluawuyu> what about a whole Gnome part and a KDE whole part 09:49 < robertjs> couf: It normally works! 09:50 < robertjs> couf: Tho splited sections in same chapter. 09:50 < jmbuser_> OK, most people are going to use Firefox, but Konqueror is a worthy alternative - how to present it is the issue 09:50 < robertjs> Two* 09:50 < couf> I'm just pointing out that we can't relay start off as: fedora is gnome, kde is alternate 09:50 < jmbuser_> Just present and leave off the GNOME/KDE labels - since the software installer will resolve all the dependencies? 09:51 < couf> hmm, see what opens by default in a kde spin, and what defaults in a gnome spin? 09:51 < couf> we should just state the defaults, as a beginner-oriented guide, imo 09:52 < jmbuser_> That occurred to me, but do we have the time and resources to produce a specific version for each spin - i don't think so 09:52 < jmbuser_> Maybe for a future release 09:53 < couf> jmbuser_: that depends, if we can get the kde sig into the game, the kde version can rock 09:53 < quaid> I think the main time sink there is the 2(Wiki) => 2(XML) 09:53 < quaid> couf: good point 09:53 < quaid> putting up the structure on the Wiki is a key first step, empty structure, I think 09:54 < couf> yeah give them the tools to do it, we'll handle the rest 09:55 -!- jmbuser_ [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:57 < quaid> oh, no, jmbuser! 09:57 < quaid> couf: do you think the KDE SIG will be more interested if we show a strong separation? 09:58 < quaid> v. "scroll down below the GNOME info and put in the KDE version there"? 09:58 < couf> I really don't know 09:58 < kiluawuyu> what about a KDE Plus section? 09:58 < couf> on the other hand, if they see all this gnome stuff written, they might want to do even better :) 10:00 < quaid> maybe we can use Include() to make them separate yet pulled together 10:00 < quaid> to be easier to work one 10:00 < quaid> that's one thing I like about MediaWiki, being able to edit == sub sections == separately 10:00 < kiluawuyu> Shall we put the regular things together and then add more words on what KDE could do? 10:00 < couf> quaid: +1 10:00 < kiluawuyu> quaid:+1 10:01 < kiluawuyu> Section: 10:01 < kiluawuyu> sub section: 10:01 < kiluawuyu> sub sectoin: 10:01 < kiluawuyu> like this? 10:01 < couf> kiluawuyu: yeah 10:02 < kiluawuyu> Agree :) 10:03 < couf> all right, maybe we should just start something else while awaiting jmbuser's return 10:03 < quaid> heh, i thought we'd end up discussing DUG all meeting 10:03 < quaid> without glezos, it's not worth discussing the GSoC and L10N connection 10:04 < couf> admin guide then, robertjs that seems to be yours 10:04 < robertjs> Ok 10:04 < quaid> I should just send a GSoC update to the list 10:04 < couf> quaid: right, glezos' app got selected, right? 10:05 * couf should stop typing "right" 10:05 < quaid> right! 10:05 < quaid> and a few others for us, and some interest in people who didn't get their apps acceptd to work on it anyway 10:05 < robertjs> I joined docs-project intending colaborate writing the sections of the Admin Guide's sections. 10:05 < couf> quaid: great :) 10:05 < quaid> so, we'll have 3 or 4 docs/l10n focused projects this summer 10:06 < robertjs> As I'm Braziliam my aim is write thos stuff in English and Portuguese 10:06 < quaid> nman64_away: who is Jeff Sheltren? 10:06 < robertjs> Anybody here started write some section? 10:07 < couf> robertjs: yeah that guide needs some love 10:07 < robertjs> couf: It will get a lot ;) 10:07 -!- jmbuser [n=jmbuser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-docs 10:07 < jmbuser> Good grief! 10:07 < couf> wb jmbuser 10:08 < couf> robertjs: I would say: dive in :) 10:08 < jmbuser> I actually was wrapping up 10:08 < robertjs> I posted a Self Presentation message on the discussion list, talking about my plans. Ill need help off native english speakers to revisions about my spelling :P 10:08 * jmbuser waits turn 10:08 < quaid> robertjs: no problem 10:09 < quaid> here, let's finish FUG discussion, just to tie back in what we suggested while jmbuser was gone 10:09 < robertjs> In the future i plan attack the current docs usggestin and write some new "in depth" docs about sysadmin topics. 10:09 < robertjs> Ok 10:09 < quaid> jmbuser: we thought we could get the KDE SIG more involved, use a set of stub sections to entice them, and design it on the Wiki as Include() based to make it easier to work on 10:09 < robertjs> this is all for now. 10:10 < quaid> robertjs: sounds good 10:10 < jmbuser> quaid: Good 10:10 < jmbuser> To sum up: 10:11 < jmbuser> 1. New title: Fedora User Guide 10:11 < jmbuser> 2. New structure (using includes) 10:12 < jmbuser> 3. Common, GNOME (default), KDE (have you considered...?) 10:12 < jmbuser> 4. Encourage KDE SIG to join in 10:12 < jmbuser> 5. Make F7 Deadline 10:13 < jmbuser> That's my viewpoint 10:13 * jmbuser finishes his contribution due to lousy internet 10:13 < kiluawuyu> F7 Deadline is included in FUG? 10:14 < couf> should we reconsider the topics, or go with the current flow? 10:14 < quaid> jmbuser: for 3, note that KDE is default on the KDE spin, so we want to make it clear that it's two choices, then from there .. 10:14 < quaid> couf: a thought on that ... 10:14 < jmbuser> quaid: That can flip based on includes 10:15 < quaid> maybe we want to pick e.g. 3 to 5 tasks per topic, make sure they are covered as how-to 10:15 < quaid> some things are obvious -- menu section == how to find stuff in these menus, etc. 10:15 < quaid> but for OOo or FX ... would that help? 10:16 < couf> OOo is to big to do that 10:16 < couf> I'd just explain what each different program does, but a bit more detailed then now 10:17 < jmbuser> Agreed, OOo is vast and we can only explain the basics of how to launch the app and point to other resources 10:17 < couf> FX is more of a: this is browser, go to google and start there :) 10:19 < jmbuser> couf: We can mention themes and extensions for Firefox, but can't get into depth 10:20 < quaid> ok, we can deep link to some OOo docs perhaps 10:20 < quaid> ... or go into how to hook OOo up for printing? 10:20 < quaid> anyway, that's off topic for this meeting that needs to come to an end 10:20 < robertjs> Dudes, I must to go now. Later i will look the chat log. Cya on discussion list or here. 10:20 < quaid> well, yeah, we need to finish 10:20 < couf> yeah indeed 10:20 < jmbuser> +1 10:21 < quaid> </meeting> -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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