SSIA 09:01 < quaid> <meeting> 09:01 < quaid> Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/SteeringCommittee/MeetingAgenda 09:01 < quaid> :) 09:02 < stickster> Good $TIMEOFDAY, everyone 09:02 < stickster> First up: GSoC 09:02 < quaid> lots of new energy there this week :) 09:03 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode 09:03 < quaid> yep 09:03 < glezos> Quoting from 2 hours ago: 09:03 < glezos> KillerX I'm interested in applying for the docbook to PDF converter project :) 09:03 * quaid saw that confab 09:03 < stickster> Yup, may have a sucker^Wtaker 09:03 < glezos> KillerX So I'll whip up a proposal and get back to you then 09:03 < quaid> well, yeah, rather than back to us, its really, back to the proposal process via code.google.com 09:04 < glezos> quaid, how about crafting a proposal for L10N WUI? 09:04 < glezos> mmcgrath also thought it would be a good idea 09:04 < quaid> ok, but same question I have about timing. 09:04 < quaid> August seems pretty late 09:04 * quaid looks at Releases/8/Schedule 09:04 < stickster> Here's KillerX's web site: http://anant.wordpress.com/ 09:05 < quaid> see, the problem is ... 09:05 < quaid> if you go 6 mon. forward from current string freeze (which is tomorrow) 09:05 < quaid> that makes string freeze Sep. 09:05 < quaid> that is awfully close, isn't it? 09:06 < glezos> quaid, well, we can start with a WUI for statistics (fairly easy) and stage 2 could be the remotely-hosted-PO-thing 09:06 < stickster> quaid: We could raise that with RelEng and craft a time buffer into the next cycle 09:06 < stickster> Slips happen, and all 09:06 < couf> time buffer++ 09:07 < glezos> Do we have any other stuff we'd like to craft as GSoC proposals? 09:07 * stickster notes that string freeze will likely be Tuesday instead 09:07 < couf> so we've got 3 bounties which have something to do with docs 09:08 < glezos> For example, say, a Web frontend for DocBook+CVS in Python? 09:08 < glezos> Ie. port of http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/ to Python 09:08 < glezos> just throwing ideas here 09:08 * quaid doesn't want to port that one, but knows what you mean 09:08 < couf> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties is the place 09:08 < quaid> yes, it is the place 09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that hiding that in Plone code would be ideal 09:09 < stickster> Once again, I think that having Plone folks would be ideal++ 09:09 < glezos> stickster, well, port to Python/Plone then 09:09 < couf> aye Plone++ 09:09 < stickster> heh 09:10 * stickster still thinks we need some expert opinion on using ReST/docutils for easy writing and better portability to DocBook 09:10 < glezos> There are 800 positions for students.. I guess crafting proposals that will not certainly be used by us doesn't hurt that much 09:11 < stickster> Wow, that's a load of positions 09:12 < stickster> OK, so glezos, you want to draft a proposal then? Is there any time left for the students to see it and apply by deadline? 09:12 < stickster> < 1 week? 09:12 < quaid> six days 09:12 < quaid> I need to do the same for the Plone install 09:12 < quaid> does that count as a student project? 09:12 < glezos> dunno.. I could write one I guess 09:12 < stickster> Hmm 09:12 < quaid> i.e., there isn't much code in a Plone install 09:13 < stickster> right 09:13 < stickster> Plone module for interaction with SCM/DocBook though... 09:13 < stickster> Whether using ReST go-between or not... 09:13 < quaid> mspevack_out threw up a request for Plone help internally, and the best so far is a team that just wrangled an install, but they seem to be offering "answers to questions" v. actual task-doing. 09:14 < stickster> understood 09:14 < glezos> quaid, maybe dubbing it "Make Plone a publishing platform" and include stuff like the one stickster just mentioned 09:14 < quaid> ah, plone module, ok 09:14 < stickster> If you asked me what the scope of that work is, I couldn't begin to tell you. 09:15 < stickster> I want to get myself to some Plone training but don't see it happening any time soon. 09:15 < EvilBob> Morning All 09:15 < EvilBob> Sorry I over slept 09:16 < couf> we should get a Plone.org guy doing a GSoC for us :) 09:16 < stickster> Hi Bob 09:16 < EvilBob> GSoC, damaestro is interested in doing one 09:16 < couf> alas, the deadline is very very soon 09:16 < stickster> OK, before we get too off-track, maybe we should set the action items for this and move on 09:16 < EvilBob> A plone item would be right up his alley 09:17 < quaid> ok 09:17 < quaid> that might do it 09:17 < quaid> I'll write up the plone thing 09:17 < stickster> suggestion: Notify Anant to let him know where to send proposal 09:17 < quaid> glezos if you can post up a first pass at the l10n wui 09:18 < glezos> quaid, I think you have a clearer idea for it.. :) 09:18 < quaid> how did KillerX find us here and not find the Google page? 09:18 < glezos> I can expand on it 09:18 < quaid> glezos: oh :) 09:18 < quaid> ok 09:18 < stickster> no idea :-D 09:18 < quaid> I'll put up first passes at both, then 09:18 < glezos> quaid, thanks. 09:18 < couf> ok, who's mentoring or wants to help mentoring? 09:19 < glezos> I can mentor for L10N WUI 09:19 < quaid> looks like anant.wordpress.org has links to SoC site already, I reckon we don't need to contact him wit hthat 09:19 < couf> glezos: /me can co-mentor on that one 09:20 < glezos> how can we make sure the applicants indeed take it seriously and will walk it through? 09:20 < couf> basicly the money does it all :) 09:20 < stickster> quaid: Good point, /me needs to read more 09:21 < couf> anyone want to take the PDF conversion? 09:22 < stickster> I can't commit for any mentoring this summer, my schedule is more than spoken for at this point :-\ 09:22 < stickster> I'm happy to drop in and advise ad-hoc anytime though 09:22 < quaid> hmm 09:22 < stickster> "asst. mentor" 09:22 < quaid> I was looking to step back a bit and give others a chance to mentor 09:23 < quaid> maybe we can co-mentor on the Plone one and I'll catch all the slack 09:24 < stickster> Guys, we need to get quaid out of doing every task. I wish I could do more but I can't commit more time until probably around July. 09:24 < EvilBob> I am willing to co-mentor however It would not be right to Mentor Damaestro because of our other working relationship 09:24 < stickster> Oh, do you employ him on the side? Like $$$? 09:24 < stickster> or maybe just 1 $ :-D 09:24 < glezos> is there no chance any older FDSCo members to help out? 09:25 < quaid> we'll have to ask 09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: something like that 09:25 < quaid> we can proceed and work out the mentoring as we go, too 09:25 < couf> sure 09:25 < EvilBob> stickster: he is a resource in my business I will put it that way 09:25 < stickster> I see 09:26 < couf> Shall we move on? 09:26 < quaid> k 09:26 < glezos> I should mention that mmcgrath might be interested in co-mentoring the L10N WUI too (the multi-repository thing anyway). 09:27 < glezos> docs.fedoraproject.org 09:27 < glezos> quaid, any comments/updates? 09:28 -!- hers [n=chatzill@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.77 [Firefox 2.0.0.2/0000000000]"] 09:28 < quaid> you know ... 09:28 < stickster> Hmm, mmcgrath as mentor -- great way to ensure things are Done Right 09:28 < stickster> s/mentor/co-mentor/ 09:29 < quaid> I'm unclear, sorry, if when we tag LIVE in CVS which site it is going to 09:29 < quaid> I've asked mmcgrath but I haven't noticed his response :) 09:29 < stickster> quaid: I haven't tried it lately to see 09:29 < quaid> we need the LIVE tagging to affect docs.fp.o now 09:30 < quaid> so we can reorganize that side 09:30 < couf> iirc, it's still only going to f.r.c 09:30 < stickster> Does Mike know where that CVS=>Web glue is on f.r.c? 09:30 * quaid posted a change last week, looks 09:30 < quaid> he does 09:31 < glezos> I know it's pretty late, but I'd like once more to raise the issue of doing it under fp.org/docs/ 09:31 < quaid> ok, that change went to fr.c 09:31 < quaid> glezos: FI said it would be easier to handle a sub-domain 09:31 < quaid> and we want one URL, right? 09:31 < stickster> yup 09:31 < quaid> and there is an existing trend in the project to use name.fp.org 09:31 < couf> +1 09:32 < quaid> hosted.fp.org, cvs.fp.o, git.fp.org, etc. 09:32 < stickster> quaid: What was your change? 09:32 < stickster> nm 09:33 < quaid> http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/developers-guide/s1-ui-gnome-guidelines.html 09:33 < glezos> if plone comes, it will be under fp.org/. If we then decide to integrate docs in there, we'd do it at fp.org/docs/, right? 09:33 < quaid> wrapped HIG citetitle with a url 09:33 < quaid> glezos: nope 09:33 < quaid> glezos: that is our choice, right? 09:33 < glezos> quaid, ok.. I'm just trying to make sure we won't have to make redirects in the future. 09:34 < quaid> well, we likely want to redirect from /docs 09:34 < glezos> ok. 09:34 < couf> with Plone we could have fp.org/docs which collects links to docs.fp.org 09:34 < quaid> let's put it this way ... 09:34 < quaid> we can still debate this, if we want 09:34 < quaid> I'm not locked in anything 09:34 < quaid> and yes this is the best/last chance, I think 09:35 < stickster> But if FI has reasons why they want it docs.fp.o, argue it there 09:35 < quaid> mike said we can do it any way we want, but the sub-dmain was "easier" or "better" I disrecall which 09:35 < quaid> but it is up to us what we want 09:35 < stickster> I haven't observed us really caring one way or the other, so we yield to FI 09:36 < stickster> As long as Google leads readers to the good stuff 09:36 < glezos> quaid, I don't have a preference. Only to not have to change it in the future. 09:36 < stickster> We shouldn't have to, I would think. 09:36 < stickster> mod_rewrite makes everything OK, yes? 09:37 < glezos> stickster, well.. not exactly. Cookies might have a problem for subdomains for example. 09:37 < stickster> That only depends on our giving them out properly, though, right? 09:37 < glezos> My only reservation is that subdomains are usually totally separate systems or software. They serve completely different functionality. But sure, with mod_rewrites you can get it all done. 09:37 < EvilBob> ! 09:37 < stickster> Again, this is for an FI argument. As a Doc'er, I totally don't care. 09:38 < glezos> OK, let's move on. I don't want to delay discussions. I will talk it up with mmcgrath to make sure. 09:38 < EvilBob> I would suggest our plone work happen under fp.o 09:38 < EvilBob> use docs.fp.o for published xml results 09:39 < quaid> yet docs.fp.o is going to be a plone front-end 09:39 < quaid> that is, it will be a virtual folder or something, right? 09:39 < glezos> quaid, no idea. 09:40 < EvilBob> I would think that d.fp.o would be static only 09:40 < stickster> I disagree, I see GNOME using subdomains for working projects 09:40 < stickster> And they're using Plone AIUI 09:41 * glezos is OK with both ways. 09:42 < glezos> shall we move on? 09:42 < quaid> EvilBob: I think static is orthogonal in this case; yes static output, but it should be put in that location by plone via workflow 09:42 < quaid> well 09:42 < quaid> I guess I'm not done 09:42 < stickster> heh 09:42 < quaid> I want to get a "litmus test" here 09:42 < quaid> Red Hat IS 'recommends' that we just redirect from f.r.c/* to fp.org and let people find what they want from there 09:43 < quaid> this is because they maintain a >1000 line set of redirects around redhat.com and say it is crazy-making 09:43 < quaid> so, mmcgrath and I discussed and we recommend a mod_rewrite rule 09:43 < quaid> that will preserve the post / content and let us parse it on the Fedora side (so no hassle to RH IS any more) 09:44 < glezos> quaid, sounds rational. 09:44 < quaid> so, this is still in negotiation, afaict; since we don't get to tell them what to do but only ask, we can't be sure how things are going to land. 09:44 < quaid> so there is a chance it will be the first 09:44 < quaid> that is, all redirect to front page, start googlejuice from scratch, etc. 09:44 < EvilBob> NOTE: there are issues when using multiple domains and subdomains in plone 09:44 < quaid> my assumption is that this is bad from a user experience, but I want to hear from ya'll 09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: what about subdomains in one domain/. 09:45 < quaid> ? 09:45 < EvilBob> that is what I was trying to make clear and failed 09:45 < quaid> EvilBob: meaning, subs in one domain should be OK, but across multiple domains is crazy? 09:45 < EvilBob> quaid: each (sub)domain requires a swperate plone instance 09:46 < EvilBob> errr instance is the wrong word 09:46 < EvilBob> testing.fu.o is not the same plone site as fu.o for example 09:47 < stickster> Can't it be, if you mod_rewrite from Apache as the front end? 09:47 < glezos> Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for a software system to choke with subdomains.. That's why usually they are intended for different systems (bugzilla, cvs-frontend, web content). Heck, even web designers have problems (grabbing images with relative paths) 09:47 < EvilBob> each and every one of the unity sites are separate 09:48 < glezos> We can further discuss this on the mailing list CCed with -infrastructure. 09:49 < quaid> how a bout just on f-i-l? 09:49 < stickster> glezos++ 09:49 < glezos> quaid, ok 09:49 < stickster> Oops, I'm not on f-i-l 09:49 < quaid> since it's really a technical issue 09:49 < EvilBob> we have hacked together a system that shares the user accounts but the content is completely separate and you need to login when changing name space 09:49 < quaid> stickster: :D 09:49 < quaid> EvilBob: ok, great point, thanks 09:49 * stickster refuses to join another mailing list until he drops at least two 09:49 < stickster> :-d 09:49 < stickster> :-d 09:49 < quaid> stickster: i've got some suggestions ... :D 09:49 < stickster> aw, hell with it 09:49 < stickster> heh 09:49 < stickster> awright, trans update 09:50 < quaid> is that me? 09:50 * quaid guesses so 09:51 < couf> hmm no it's glezos :) 09:51 < quaid> oh, good 09:51 < quaid> except I guess I have something to report to him :) 09:51 < couf> then go on :) 09:51 < glezos> um 09:51 < glezos> well, I tried GNOME's Damned Lies interface 09:51 < quaid> on Friday i talked with mmcgrath and poelcat (John Poelstra); poelcat is now looking into the feasibility of him being a facilitator within Red hat for those parts 09:52 < glezos> Which seems to have future. I contacted it's maintainer and he said he's willing to help out in porting (it's already well written and supoprts modules etc) 09:52 < quaid> meaning we'd need to PM the Fedora side ourselves 09:52 < glezos> The second part of L10N WUI that quaid and I are thinking is make it possible to serve remotely-hosted POs (ie act as a SCM client) 09:53 < glezos> See: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/RFR/L10nCVSandUI 09:53 * EvilBob is away (phone) 09:53 < glezos> Sonar_Gal, if we find a student to investigate these two for GSoC we'd be perfect. 09:53 < couf> poor Sonar_Gal 09:53 < glezos> agr. So, So, *So* 09:54 < glezos> We could also write them as two different proposals, right? 09:55 < stickster> 11 min/me reads 09:55 < stickster> oops, I mean: 09:55 < stickster> me reads 09:56 < quaid> from what I was reporting, a different twist has come up that I think we should address/decide upon 09:56 < quaid> but I'm unclear if it is ours to decide :) 09:56 < quaid> so maybe a step back ... 09:56 < quaid> do we feel we have enough representation from all the involved communities? 09:56 < quaid> to form a short-term SIG so we can vote/decide on stuff. 09:57 < stickster> having couf and glezos here helps, but we should probably reach out for some more input, yes 09:57 < quaid> in that I don't think this is really FDSCo's to decide ... 09:57 < couf> hmm, good question, sig++ both involvment: not that much imo 09:57 < quaid> ok, so here is the ponderable ... 09:57 < couf> s/both/but 09:57 < quaid> poelcat is checking on a possible resource offer from the group that 'owns' elvis.rh.c internally 09:58 < quaid> not knowing yet what that means ... I want to figure out what parameters we have for accepting such help/. 09:58 < quaid> for example, here are two ways I could see help coming: 09:58 < quaid> i. Help comes to work within the community on a joint solution; sharing of resources; Fedora/RHEL model, etc. 09:59 < quaid> ii. Help comes to "fix" problems in elvis.rh.c, and keeps all their work and processes internal until they are ready for us to start testing externally 09:59 < quaid> would we want help in both of those cases? or only in i)? 09:59 < stickster> only i. 09:59 < couf> only i 10:00 < quaid> I share this feeling :) 10:00 < quaid> but ... 10:00 < quaid> the problem is I don't speak the 100+ languages of our trans community 10:00 < glezos> quaid, I'm for i too, and AFAICT, mspevack shares this opinion. 10:00 < quaid> and what if 80% of them want "big Daddy Red hat" to take care of this for them, and they don't care 10:01 < glezos> (ie bring Fedora-affected systems & processes to the community space) 10:01 < couf> hmm, I'm noticing a change of attitude towards this on the trans-list, people are stepping up 10:01 < quaid> I'm concerned that we are acting from a perceived opinion, that is, we perceive that the rest of the l10n community shares our opinion, when we can't directly know that because of lang and cultural differences 10:01 < couf> and are feeling things have to change 10:01 < glezos> quaid, I'll make that clear enough: 99% of the L10N community does translations for Fedora, not RHEL. 10:02 < quaid> yes, but does "vocal" == "majority"? 10:02 < quaid> glezos: :) 10:02 < couf> quaid: fair enough 10:02 < stickster> We want to avoid disenfranchising folks, especially since it could affect overall Fedora l10n 10:03 < stickster> But FOSS has always been about taking ownership/responsibility for doing things 10:03 < quaid> ok 10:03 < glezos> stickster, certainly. But we need to be able to do our jobs. We want to do much more than what elvis can provide and we are willing to do them quickly. 10:03 < stickster> We could take a better quality, lower drag poll, I suppose 10:03 < couf> the big problem is that not everyone is on the list, and looks at it 10:03 < quaid> right 10:03 < stickster> If people don't have to write an email to the list, we may get more responses. 10:03 < stickster> sure, there's that as ewll. 10:03 < stickster> s/ewll/well/ 10:03 < quaid> and the thing is ... the translators who work for RH are on many sub-lists and they could tell us, but what would they tell us? 10:04 * EvilBob is off the phone 10:04 < EvilBob> I need to run, buddy is broke down.... 10:04 < quaid> ok, I guess the point is not really moot 10:04 < quaid> EvilBob: cheers 10:04 < glezos> My goal for L10N WUI is for it to support upstream translations. If this works, then RH could use it for any project it likes. 10:04 < quaid> in that Fedora leadership doesn't want systems that happen behind doors for us to "benefit" from 10:05 < quaid> we have taken the lesser-quality-for-now because it is open stance 10:05 < quaid> glezos: +1 we could do this the right way, for sure 10:05 < stickster> We can attract more interest and participation by simply starting the gears turning 10:05 < quaid> ok, I just wanted to be sure we all agreed oon this direction, and my thinking was sound. 10:06 * stickster wants to make sure someone keeps in the back of their head that we would like to connect this, as well, to Plone in the far-flung future if at all possible 10:06 < glezos> Ideally, this shift towards the community space will benefit all of us. So, I see the best thing would be for RH L10N team to help materialize our vision, just like the Merge. 10:06 < quaid> glezos: I saw you wondering about "does scml10n need to sign the GPG" and I can't see any way around it 10:06 < quaid> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KarstenWade/Drafts/CLAAcceptanceHierarchies#preview 10:06 < stickster> glezos: Right. The reason that has worked out so well is that people Just Did It. 10:06 < quaid> the proposal there is clear -- once in SCM, the risk is higher, etc. 10:07 < stickster> Extras is the biggest success story in Fedora 10:07 < couf> yeah certainly CLA for cvsl10n 10:07 < quaid> note that ... Fedora didn't do the best internal marketing job around the mere 10:07 < stickster> quaid: CLA++ 10:07 < quaid> merge 10:07 < glezos> quaid, right now they don't have to sign the CLA for i18n.redhat.com. 10:07 < quaid> and we are trying to avoid stepping in that bear trap 10:07 < quaid> glezos: yes, I know; they should have; IMNSHO that was a big mistake 10:07 < stickster> quaid: I'm not so sure that it was a bad job... but I don't see the internal lists. ;-) 10:07 < couf> glezos: CLA was concieved after i18n 10:08 < quaid> we are shipping lots of content we don't have a clear right to use, unless there is something in i18n I don't get 10:08 < stickster> There hasn't been much public grumbling, and what there was of it was mostly due to misunderstandings and people entrenching for no good reason. 10:08 < glezos> quaid, there is an alternative. Give the option through the WUI for a person to submit a translation and the language maintainer has to approve/commit it. 10:08 < quaid> glezos: sure 10:08 < quaid> glezos: that's like the Wiki model 10:08 < couf> QA is realy needed 10:09 < quaid> they still need to agree to something when submitting that is essentially the CLA :) 10:09 < quaid> that is, the WikiLicense is really the CLA + OPL 10:09 < glezos> OK. Once we have a prototype WUI we can figure more complex stuff then. 10:09 < stickster> This all comes back to the click-through, waiting on Legal. 10:09 < quaid> I think it is a big mistake to ever debate if a contribution "should" be under the CLA 10:10 < quaid> when an Ambassador makes a speach, it's a contribution, needs to be covered, etc. 10:10 < quaid> stickster: working on that one :) 10:10 < quaid> my "PlainEnglishCLA" did offend, which I was afraid of :), and got justly shot-down 10:10 < glezos> quaid, let's just say that the actual committer takes responsibility for the submitted contributions. I think these are slightly minor issues. 10:10 < stickster> Careful with extending the license agreement to vocal speech 10:10 * quaid had called it "HumanSpeakCLA" but changed that to not offend the lawyers 10:11 < glezos> lol 10:11 < quaid> glezos: good point, like bugzilla; minor point 10:11 < stickster> I think you'd find a lot of trouble in that. If it's a written presentation that's held somewhere or committed to paper, sure... but speech is not generally licensed :-) 10:11 < quaid> stickster: yes, I mean, written and put on wiki 10:11 < quaid> or whatever 10:11 < stickster> heh 10:11 < stickster> ok, +1 that 10:11 < quaid> I just mean, don't try to classify what is or is not a contribution 10:11 < couf> :) 10:12 < stickster> right 10:12 < quaid> rather classify what is the risk in taking that contribution 10:12 < stickster> If it goes in, it has to be covered, period. 10:12 < stickster> If we hold on to it, it has to be covered. 10:12 < quaid> and applyu CLA difficulties by risk levels 10:12 < quaid> submit via bugzilla or ml as a patch, low risk, etc. 10:12 < quaid> ok, we've beaten on this one enough? 10:13 < glezos> guess so 10:13 < quaid> I'll let you know what poelcat says 10:13 < quaid> but we're essentially on our own on the Fedora side 10:13 < couf> yay 10:13 < quaid> and we're seeking clarity on what "don't break our system" means so we can achieve or reject that 10:14 < stickster> OK, so back to agenda then... wiki reorg ==> couf 10:14 < stickster> yes? 10:14 < couf> all right 10:14 < couf> everyone has seen it, and approved right? 10:15 < couf> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00039.html 10:16 < stickster> Yes, with comments as posted earlier 10:16 < couf> I'm just looking for the best way to get this started 10:16 * quaid admits to not having dived into that one 10:16 < couf> i) get an wiki from FI (RFR) 10:16 < glezos> couf, write a wiki page with the structure as bullets? 10:17 < couf> ii) personal wiki-userspace 10:17 < couf> iii) just dive in 10:17 < glezos> I'd vote for iii) 10:17 < stickster> iii) 10:18 < quaid> fine with me 10:18 < stickster> couf: See how much you can do by only reorganizing, and cutting, pages 10:18 < stickster> Rather than writing *more* 10:18 < couf> right on, I'm planning on doing this in the next two weeks 10:18 < couf> stickster: I'm going for less rather than more 10:19 < stickster> We can always hand-craft later as needed 10:19 < quaid> yes, odds are, what we need is there, and needs to be trimmed and combined 10:19 < stickster> hoo-rah 10:20 < stickster> couf: Anything else you need before starting? 10:20 < couf> hmm, not really, I'm gonna setup a template this week 10:20 < quaid> ref. Docs/Drafts => DocsProject/Drafts ... I think we want to keep those in Docs/ because we want people to 'beta test' them 10:21 < stickster> Yeah, I think someone mentioned that on the list... hmmm, lemmesee 10:21 < couf> yeah I got that one :) 10:21 < quaid> ok, good 10:21 * quaid missed that, just read through the thread 10:21 < stickster> coo' 10:21 < quaid> otherwise it sounds great to me, and I'll help wherever I can as we proceed 10:22 * stickster notes, moving up on 90 minutes, meeting red alert! 10:22 < couf> okay guys, in two weeks the project-wiki will be totaly different :) 10:22 < couf> cool 10:22 < couf> let's move on then :) 10:22 < stickster> OK, PDF 10:22 < couf> Last item on list is PDF 10:23 < glezos> next subject: PDF guides. Should we bother going after them *now* or wait for F7 to make them through the tolchain? 10:23 < stickster> I would rather do this right (and leverage GSoC) than do it twice 10:24 < glezos> stickster, we could get F7 IG in PDF with cups-pdf with a couple of clicks.. 10:24 * stickster has yet to see a stunning argument for PDF production other than allowing people to print something prettier than HTML, which isn't necessarily in our interests... 10:24 * glezos thinks PDFs will increase the popularity of our Docs 10:24 < stickster> We can allow users to do this now with a print CSS and save the trouble 10:25 < glezos> people just save it on their Desktops for future reference for example... 10:25 < stickster> In the web includes: "Print me!" 10:25 < stickster> For future reference when? After they install? 10:25 < stickster> We want people to come back for the latest version 10:25 < quaid> it's all about different styles 10:25 < stickster> yeah, I'm not opposed to PDF at all, just for the record 10:25 < quaid> enough people like the PDF style for a guide, but honestly its hard to tell how much it matters 10:26 < glezos> I guess people just don't know that some HTML is very nicely printable 10:26 < stickster> I just think having to keep up with republishing manually is dreary 10:26 < stickster> glezos: the "Print Me" button can take care of that. 10:26 < couf> right, we should just have the "print me" link on the page and let users do it 10:27 * stickster has printed several articles from RHM for example, to distribute to bosses and peers 10:27 < quaid> that would be worth rebuilding docs for, yes 10:27 < stickster> Well, the print me button should appear courtesy of SSI's and not in our publishing process, IYAM 10:27 < quaid> since some of them aren't even buildable but need porting to the new Makefile/tools 10:28 < couf> and if anyone comes up with *the* solution to PDF production, we'll handle it then 10:28 < glezos> anyway. just thinking that people do like PDFs, not sure for what reasons though... probably the self-packed one-file-contains-everything idea 10:28 < stickster> Oh I see, you mean, "Wow, I'd even fix <XYZ> doc if it got that button slapped on it" 10:29 < stickster> For our *real* PDF's, I really want an actual to-die-for style, including stylish page markings and sidebars from admonitions. 10:29 < couf> stickster++ 10:29 < glezos> stickster+++ 10:29 * couf has to bail 10:29 < glezos> we've even found a name for the style... to-die-for.xsl 10:30 < couf> see ya (buffer rolling) 10:30 -!- couf is now known as couf_away 10:30 < stickster> heh 10:30 < stickster> bye couf 10:31 < glezos> Haven't received any emails on this: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2007-March/msg00139.html 10:31 < quaid> so, can we do the SSI version? 10:31 < stickster> quaid: that depends on how we publish to docs.fp.o 10:31 < quaid> stickster: today it is the same as f.r.c 10:31 < stickster> Right now, there's bare PHP sitting up there with nothing backing it up 10:31 < quaid> and is likely to stay that way for a while 10:32 < stickster> So we certainly can move the includes there as well, and restyle if necessary 10:32 < stickster> Is PHP running on that host? And is it likely to? 10:32 < stickster> (if not) 10:33 < stickster> glezos: Give it a couple days, weekend work is sketchy 10:33 < quaid> I don't know how he has it set up 10:33 < stickster> me neither 10:33 < quaid> well, presumably like before 10:34 < quaid> PHP builds static pages on the backend 10:34 < quaid> I can include the SSI wherever we want 10:34 < stickster> Yeah, I think we need the images up there too 10:34 < stickster> And the CSS for now, so we can monkey with it 10:35 < stickster> Wait... where will we access all that? 10:35 < quaid> via cvs 10:35 < stickster> Oh, I guess if he just hooks those in from the Web module in CVS the same way, should be fine 10:35 < stickster> jinx 10:35 < quaid> yep, and I'm ready to reorganize to chop out all the non-docs from the Nav 10:35 < stickster> OK, may have just missed those pieces then 10:35 < stickster> I can help too 10:35 < quaid> cool 10:36 < stickster> The "Print Me" shouldn't be too hard 10:36 < quaid> let's first get the word that pub of LIVE is on docs.fp.o, which it appears it is not 10:36 < stickster> We'll add a publishing bit for html-nochunks to fit into, that would be the best printable I would think 10:36 < glezos> CSS can do very neat things.. unfortunately not everything, but OK. 10:37 < mmcgrath> quaid: I'll set that up today (the whole live publish) 10:38 < glezos> should we publish the meeting log? Or probably trancuate it leaving only the TODO stuff (as reminders for next week)? 10:39 < stickster> Marvelous Mike makes a miraculous meeting materialization! 10:39 < quaid> mmcgrath: ok, I was just emailing f-i-l 10:39 * quaid cancels that 10:39 < quaid> glezos: both; full log with summary above 10:41 < quaid> </meeting> -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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