Hello Olivier! On 20/11/2007, Olivier Galibert <galibert@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > [Sent it personally instead of to the list by mistake] See, people make mistakes! > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 06:06:54PM +0100, Lubomir Kundrak wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2007-11-20 at 15:51 +0100, Olivier Galibert wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2007 at 08:26:47AM -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > > Perhaps you should calm down a bit. Flying off the handle before > > > > asking if the bug permissions can be changed or an explanation is > > > > provided is probably not going to be very productive. > > > > > > Well, sorry. Fedora becomes worse for my use with each release I try, > > > and I'm starting to get really annoyed at that, because it used to be > > > so much better. > > > > May I ask what's "your use"? > > My use is a team in a lab with 100-200 machines, about 30 of them > physically on people's desktops, about 80 in two oscar clusters. Some > of the people could do system administration, some couldn't, most > don't want to anyway. I don't blame them with this kind of attitude hanging around. > Since I ended up as sysadmin-by-default, I need a distribution which I > can install and update with a minimum amount of fussing, and where the > installation has pretty much everything the users are going to need. Dude, you're using Fedora? Seriously, I love it but I wouldn't deploy it large scale. Thats what RHEL or CentOS is for. > At fedora core 3 times, things were reasonably nice. You could do an > everything install, test it for a while to see what was missing and/or > broken, put the packages and the additionally needed ones in a local > network repository and go. And you would be ok for two years. See above. > At fedora core 5 times, Everything was lost. Thankfully it is still > in kickstart, but it makes the initial testing phase more annoying. > Way more problematic is the support time which went down to one year. See above. > At fedora 7 time, Core was mostly lost. There is still the list of > package on the DVD as a guideline though, but there isn't a separate > updates directory you can easily merge in anymore. To the point that > I didn't find the time to do the new installation before 8 was out. See above. > Now we're at 8 and I want to try to move to it, but static ip support > is fucked, and the list of packages on the DVD doesn't even have tcsh, > which 50% of the people here use. Installing from the DVD by checking > all 3 options at the top level doesn't even give you make or gcc, > which is kind of annoying when the reason for installing interactively > in the first place is to have everything needed to hack on anaconda to > fix the static ip issue. An yum install '*' conflicts all the way due > to the multilib crap. You are insance if you think a "yum install *" will work. Section 8. Certifiable. As for tcsh that is what kickstart is for as well as make and gcc. > And that's before anybody has even started to *use* the distribution. > > Fedora makes me think of E.R., at times. In the first seasons the > show was about the hospital, and found its public. Then they seem to > have decided try to extend its viewership by adding a lot on > interpersonal relationships to the point of forgetting the hospital > part. The old public left, not having what they wanted anymore, and > the potential new one stayed with Gray's Anatomy, which does > relationships much better. And the viewership is crashing down. And you're the patient with hypochondria. > Fedora was originally nice for people coming from an Unix background, > where 50% of the windows on the screen are xterms. It seems to have > collectively decided that it should instead cater to the Windows kind > of people, to the detriment of the Unix ones. A default installation > does not have a compiler. Everything looking slightly technical is > hidden as much as possible. Easily understandable and editable text > configuration files are routinely replaced by an obfuscated xml-based > registry[1] with automatically generated GUIs from hell[2]. Basic > things like static ips and routes are considered legacy and their > support totally untested and/or considered unimportant. And > significantly every comparison is done with Ubuntu, the epitome of the > windowsian-come-here distributions, and never with Debian or Gentoo. > > Keep cranking up the pain, guys, and fedora will definitively makes > its place in the "master of none" category. Keep on bitching and being rude on devel and I'll use my coffee break to write these helpful replies. > It's kinda sad that people who do such a good job upstream end up > building such a crappier-over-time distribution from it. Gee thanks, I'm searching for things you've done to help but am scratching. > [1] gconf I'm looking at you and I bet its _scared_... > [2] The only thing worse than a GUI designed by a computer scientist > is a GUI automatically generated from a format description. Fair enough. Scrap those silly GUI's and lets start again. But no pesky computer scientists this time! Cheers Chris -- http://www.chruz.com -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
