On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:43:59 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:38 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:31:08 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 9:26 PM John M. Harris Jr > > > <johnmh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 6:14:27 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:59 PM John M. Harris Jr > > > > > <johnmh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, July 10, 2020 5:56:31 PM MST Neal Gompa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 8:55 PM John M. Harris Jr > > > > > > > <johnmh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 28, 2020 12:53:26 PM MST Ben Cotton wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/drop_mod_php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Summary == > > > > > > > > > mod_php (apache2handler) is an optional httpd module to > > > > > > > > > execute > > > > > > > > > PHP > > > > > > > > > scripts, not used. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Owner == > > > > > > > > > * Name: [[User:Remi| Remi Collet]] > > > > > > > > > * Email: remi at fedoraproject dot org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Detailed Description == > > > > > > > > > By default php-fpm is used for a few versions. mod_php is > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > supported for threaded modules. mod_php usage also > > > > > > > > > increases > > > > > > > > > security > > > > > > > > > risk, sharing the same process than httpd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Drop mod_php from php build. This will only affect user of > > > > > > > > > httpd > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > "prefork" mode, which will also use php-fpm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > php-fpm is already used but most users of httpd and nginx > > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "php" package will be kept as a metapackage, installing > > > > > > > > > (weak > > > > > > > > > dependencies) most commonly used extension, thus reducing > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > difference between "yum install php" (flat repository) and > > > > > > > > > "yum > > > > > > > > > module > > > > > > > > > install php" (modular repository). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Benefit to Fedora == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only provide the modern way to execute PHP in a web server. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Scope == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PHP rebuild (mod_php build is already conditional) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Other developers: N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > > > > > > > > * Release engineering: N/A > > > > > > > > > * Policies and guidelines: N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > > > > > > > > * Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Upgrade/compatibility impact == > > > > > > > > > N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == How To Test == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * install and play with your web applications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == User Experience == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Dependencies == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None (dependency on "php" is already forbidden by > > > > > > > > > Guidelines) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Contingency Plan == > > > > > > > > > * revert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change) > > > > > > > > > * Blocks release? N/A (not a System Wide Change), Yes/No > > > > > > > > > * Blocks product? product > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > == Documentation == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that this has been accepted, I take it that the current > > > > > > > > maintainer > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > mod_php no longer wants to maintain it? I'd like to offer to > > > > > > > > take > > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > package if that's the case, so that Fedora will continue to > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > using mod_php. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mod_php is built from the php source tree, so no, you can't > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In that case, is it possible that it can just be kept in the > > > > > > build, > > > > > > so > > > > > > that we can continue to support it? There's really not a whole lot > > > > > > of > > > > > > reason to kill off something as useful and widely used as mod_php > > > > > > while > > > > > > it's still working well for thousands, if not hundreds of > > > > > > thousands, > > > > > > of > > > > > > servers, and is still the preferred backend for Apache, which > > > > > > even > > > > > > defaults to prefork upstream.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fedora has not defaulted to prefork for Apache httpd since Fedora > > > > > 27, > > > > > upstream Apache httpd has not defaulted to it for even *longer*. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache httpd switched to event mpm by default more than a decade > > > > > ago > > > > > (at least 12 years ago, from what I can tell, most likely longer!). > > > > > Fedora finally followed upstream on this in Fedora 27, and mod_php > > > > > has > > > > > been broken in the default configuration since then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But even with that, we've had PHP-FPM as the default with Apache > > > > > httpd > > > > > for five years now. Out of the box, that's what is set up. Nobody > > > > > noticed that mod_php was broken for the past two years, and nobody > > > > > has > > > > > had any real issues with the default PHP SAPI being switched five > > > > > years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At this point, the only reason to keep it is if there's something > > > > > that > > > > > somehow absolutely cannot run with PHP-FPM but can with mod_php. If > > > > > something like that is the case, we *could* restore it as a > > > > > subpackage. But it'd have to be a pretty compelling case... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing the defaults isn't a problem, people who have running > > > > systems > > > > won't be effected. This will actively break peoples' systems upon > > > > update, if mod_php is dropped. It wasn't ever broken, and it's not > > > > broken > > > > now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, no. You need to be more convincing than that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you went out of your way to change the apache configuration > > > snippet we ship for apache httpd, then you would seamlessly switch to > > > FPM as soon as you installed it and activated the service. And if you > > > *did* go out of your way to change it, then you can go change it again > > > to work with PHP-FPM. > > > > > > > > My systems never had php-fpm, and certainly didn't get it upon upgrading. > > They've been running just fine for years. I don't see any reason to lose > > performance to php-fpm's overhead, and lose the stability of mod_php. > > > > > > > What are you talking about? In almost every case I've ever seen or > used, PHP-FPM is *more performant* than mod_php. I work for a company > that writes an absurd amount of complex PHP software. We switched from > mod_php to PHP-FPM everywhere *four years ago* for *performance* and > *stability*. Decoupling the interpreter from the web server improves > the reliability of the stack and makes it easier for code execution > and presentation to perform at optimum levels. Moreover, it becomes > possible to reuse the same FPM instance for multiple applications > across multiple web servers, which is incredibly useful. Because of FastCGI, php-fpm adds ~1ms to every request, and I'm not the only one that's measured similar results. Most systems running a web server only run one webserver, generally either just apache or just nginx, so I don't see the benefit to that either. > > The only system I have running with php-fpm is one where I installed a PHP > > app which is packaged in Fedora. > > > > > > > Then just switch everything else. It's not that hard. Why should I have to switch the system that's being used, and potentially break these servers, just because a package isn't being compiled anymore? It still works, and it works very well. It has less overhead than php-fpm, even! > > Again, there's no technical debt kept by just continuing to build and > > ship > > mod_php. I'm not asking you to provide support for it, and I'm happy to > > tackle any bugs found with it, not that I suspect there will be any. > > I'm far from the only user that has systems still running on mod_php. If > > this goes through, upon upgrade to Fedora 33, these users' systems will > > cease to function properly. > > > > > > > I *just* outlined the problems with shipping mod_php. You can continue > to blithely ignore them at your own peril. I'm sorry, but I don't see that in the email I'm responding to, the email you send just before that, or the root of this thread. What are the actual problems with shipping mod_php? I'm not talking about "benefits" of using php- fpm, but the problems with shipping mod_php? I'd be happy to help solve them, so that users such as myself and the others using mod_php can continue to do so. -- John M. Harris, Jr. _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
