On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 20:10, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:22 PM Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 09:22, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 6:46 AM Pierre-Yves Chibon <pingou@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> > > >> > >> There are two issues to unpack here: > >> > >> 1. We use a weird custom backend and custom protocol extensions. > >> > >> This should definitely be replaced if it makes sense. It’s more urgent > >> now that RHEL 6 is going EOL next year, and FAS 2 is still a Python > >> 2.6 application. FAS 3 *would* have fixed it, but interest by the FAS > >> developers died a while ago… > >> > >> Naturally, the replacement is equally in a poor state, but may have > >> some legs someday: https://github.com/fedora-infra/noggin > >> > >> 2. Ipsilon development was only considered important as part of being > >> tech preview in RHEL and now it’s not. > >> > >> There are some major problems here. First of all, Ipsilon development > >> has been gated by a single person. That person also seems to have > >> trouble making time to review pull requests. There has been interest > >> from the broader community about using and contributing to Ipsilon, > >> since unlike Keycloak, it is written in an accessible language > >> (Python). > >> > >> Getting Ipsilon to Python 3 would be enough for me to get started on > >> bootstrapping some of the other interested parties onto Ipsilon, and > >> hopefully give us a more sustainable community long-term. > >> > >> A final note here, I’m generally disappointed in how inaccessible > >> infrastructure resources are to the broader community, and while a > >> community OpenShift will alleviate some of that, I’m concerned that > >> more sophisticated services would still require the crap workflow we > >> have now for community vs infra. I’ve had thoughts about how to make > >> that better on a broader basis, but that’s probably for another time… > >> > >> > > > > I don't know what is worse.. that if we try to improve things by saying we can't maintain everything we are crap, or if we don't try to improve things by maintaining stuff poorly we are crap. Do you want to beat us in the morning or evening or just both times so you can work out your frustrations on how badly we do stuff? > > > > I don’t have a problem with you saying you can’t maintain everything > and focusing on stuff *to* maintain. But I have been trying for > *months* to try to help in various efforts as a member of the > community. There’s very little I can do because there’s just simply no > avenue for the community to be involved. > > I took over maintenance of the pagure package in Fedora and EPEL > because pingou couldn’t keep up with it and everything else for this > reason. In the process of that, I’ve become a contributor and try to > help where I can. > > And I’ve had a standing offer open with abompard to co-maintain the > Mailman 3 stack as soon as it landed in Fedora. It’s still valid, even > today. > > I’m happy to do the same for Ipsilon, and I’d even like to become a > contributor once I’ve had a chance to get up to speed with it, like I > did for Pagure. > > My frustration is that people who aren’t working at Red Hat have *no* > avenue to help support the Project’s infrastructure. Granted, this > isn’t exclusively a Fedora thing. CentOS has this problem, and > openSUSE is worse, since all of their maintenance scripts are > completely private behind a VPN that only SUSE employees have access > to. > > But what is the point of saying stuff like this when we don’t have a > way to be a part of it? You’ve basically handed down ultimatums to the > entirety of the Fedora Project, contingent on the mostly RHer Fedora > Council (who has access to information the rest of us can’t ever get, > since we’re not employed by Red Hat) approving it. > > I fully expect that the Council will approve this, because they’ve > been saying for months that Fedora Infra’s team can’t support it all. > But that’s the problem. It’s *not* a Fedora team. It’s *just* Red > Hatters who happen to work on Fedora. And their priorities are handled > based on all the things they work on, and that includes CentOS and > maybe even other things as part of Red Hat’s OSPO (though I’m not sure > of that just yet…). > > I’m not trying to beat you guys up, but I don’t know what you want > from us. Based on my personal experience, it’s hard for me to be > enthusiastic about helping anymore… I think what you describe Neal is the effect of the team being overloaded, there is simply not enough hours in the week (and some of us are working a crazy number of hours per week) for us to keep everything running and also be able to help with more community involvement at least this is my feeling. A lot of the discussion we had was based on the value the CPE team brings to Fedora. The reality is that we have limited resources and way *too* many projects (https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/state-of-the-community-platform-engineering-team/), code base to take care of. This leads to a crazy amount of technical debts, cutting corners and quick fixes becoming permanent. All this I think as lead to the general experience that contributing to Fedora is becoming a poorer experience other the time ( tools breaking, application replacing other applications with only half of the old feature implemented etc ... ). Today I think we came to the point where we think that investing our time in the applications that are meeting our mission statement ( see https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/outcome-of-the-cpes-teams-face-to-face/ ) will be more beneficial to the community than us spending cycle on developing and maintaining for example a calendar, election or authentication applications . So the overall idea is for us to shift our focus where we can make an impact instead of spreading our effort across so many projects that there is not visible outcomes of our work. Part of this effort on our side is also to be more transparent in the way we work and how we plan, prioritize things, this is hopefully going to help with community involvement. I would be really interested to hear about your ideas to improve or increase the community involvement in within Fedora Infrastructure. > > > > -- > 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
