On Tuesday 28 January 2014 08:23:46 Stephen Gallagher wrote:
> Forwarding this to server@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx as well. Responses
> inline.
As I'm not on the server list (yet), I replied to both lists.
If "devel" should be off this thread, just remove it in your next reply
and I'll understand the hint.
> I realize you address this below somewhat, but I want to call out that
> what you're describing here is the *presentation layer* of
> configuration, not necessarily the configuration itself. In general,
> the vast majority of applications keep their configurations in 1) a
> set of text files, 2) a project-specific database or 3) a combination
> of the two)
>
> If projects provide a set of tools to manipulate this configuration,
> that's separate from the configuration itself. As we start talking
> about applying configuration to a system, we can reuse existing tools
> where they make sense, but it's also reasonable to say that we might
> choose to bypass them and use a tool such as Augeaus or Puppet to
> apply the configuration we want.
+1
My point was that creating a standard *model* does not prevent us
from choosing different mechanisms for the implementation. It simply
hides those differences behind a standard interface[s].
Just like packagers may use different contents in their %build section
but *every* package is still being built with the same rpmbuild command.
> Yes, I agree. Simple package installation must not require
> interaction. We should define that as a fundamental tenet of our
> approach. We need it to always be possible to have unattended or
> scripted operation.
+1
> Yeah, obviously we'll need to maintain simple distinction about how we
> maintain the data. Namespacing is one option. Another might be to use
> an object-oriented API where we have objects associated with each
> service (not necessarily package...) that have configuration options
> specified as their attributes.
OO API is fine, as long as all classes present a unified *interface*.
About name-spacing/scoping:
* If a package contain more than one service, the scoping may be more
fine-grained/narrow than a package -- no problem.
* However, if the highest level scope is a package -- than each package
may simply contain its configuration definitions.
[I'm talking about the configuration keys+types, not their values].
* Advantages of such a design:
- When a package is installed, its configuration options are exposed
(simply because its configuration definition files are there)
- A package is still self-contained and fully describe its software
(including the available configuration options).
> Extending the above, one of my thoughts on another thread on the
> Fedora Server mailing list is to use D-BUS for the configuration API.
> Among other things, we have the D-BUS object types to work with. This
> would mean that we can have service-specific objects with
> appropriately-typed options.
Sounds like a great idea:
* As you said we automatically gain all D-Bus goodies (including
a fully developed type-system).
* Also, I think we can map it to some data-driven syntax.
Example:
* For simplicity, let's assume each configuration item is a D-Bus property.
* Than a package may install a "configuration definition file":
/usr/share/system-config-data/<package>/foo.conf-defs:
<D-Bus interface> <object> <property> <ro/rw/wo>
* So a generic configuration engine that read all these files,
should have no trouble accessing these properties,
presenting them to the user (according to their types) and
then inject the user choice over D-Bus.
* The packager would have to supply implementation for these objects,
but we may ease this for most packages by supplying some common classes
which can be easily inherited from.
[obviously, this part is the toughest to get right]
> > * A package installation register its configuration options in a
> > system-wide "database".
>
> I'm not sure this makes sense. This would require us to maintain data
> in two places, because zero existing packages would *retrieve* their
> data from this location. We'd have a duplication problem and we would
> also be responsible for bi-directional sync (if someone hand-edited a
> configuration file, we'd need to read it back into the database).
I suspect my choice of words ("database") wasn't so good.
I didn't mean storing the configuration *values*, only the available
configuration options.
Perhaps calling it "catalog" would have made more sense. Basically,
in "debconf" it contains a list of all possible "configuration entries".
Each with:
* A fully qualified name (including the package it belongs to).
* Type info.
* Available translations.
> I think it makes more sense to build an API around something like
> Augeaus and rely on being able to read and write the configuration
> that the packages already understand.
Sure. If we can wrap Augeaus in some base class, than the implementation
of most packages would be:
* Inherit from this base class (via, to be designed, declarative syntax).
* Pass our package specific data to this class constructor.
Where the package-specific data would be a file containing relevant Augeaus code.
> > * This also contains end-user visible text for each option
> > including i18n.
> I think it would be better to handle this at the API layer, rather
> than in a database.
There's a trade-off:
* API layer -- more flexible.
* Just i18n strings -- easier, may be given to translator teams, etc.
If you look at i18n -- the FOSS community already made this choice --
almost everybody model it as data strings (.desktop files, pot/po files, etc.)
> Again, if we build a sensible API, it should be possible to build
> whatever presentation layer we want to atop it. Of note, we're
> planning to work with the Cockpit Project for our reference
> implementation.
OK,
> > * All front ends need only understand the generic types of the
> > options. (I.e: they provide generic configuration UI widgets which
> > aren't modified when new packages/options are added)
> >
>
> I don't agree with this. Providing just a text entry box and a
> description isn't an effective UI technique, particularly if you want
> to be able to produce guided or wizard-based operation. (For example,
> if you have branching decisions during configuration).
* The basic widget depends on the richness of your type system.
For example, debconf has a "multi-select" type and its typical
presentation is a drop-down list or something similar.
* But you are correct that even with rich widget collection, the
basic model is: "one-widget-at-a-time" which is somewhat limiting.
* Maybe someone can find some generic enhancement to the "one-widget"
model?
However, a fully flexible UI model may present a lot of obstacles:
* Packagers would need to write/maintain non-trivial UI models. I suspect
this won't be maintainable (unless most of it would rapidly flow
to upstream... hmmm... chicken and egg problem, related to wide adoption).
* It would limit the available presentation formats. One of the huge
benefits in "debconf" is that it can be used *everywhere*:
- GUI
- TUI (try to implement the Anaconda "spoke" interaction on a console...)
- Regular text -- yes you can use it over plain old serial port (these
days ignoring embedded systems doesn't sound like a good idea).
- Preseed -- injecting (seeding) data beforehand. If you inject *some*
but not all data -- How should it affect the interaction with complex
UI ?
Maybe the right approach for Wizards and other complex UI would be:
* Create *optional* complex UI separately (maybe include it in its
own (foobar-server) package).
* This code would collect arbitrary info via arbitrary UI and would
inject it (preseed) into the regular configuration items.
* Obviously, this "high-level" configuration UI would have tight coupling
to the low-level configuration details (item names and types).
Other ideas?
> > * The debconf "API" allows fetching any option from the database
> > and the values of these options are used to configure the actual
> > software.
> >
>
> See above for the sync problem with this.
As I explained, there's no problem since *values* are kept only once
(inside the configured program native files/databases/whatever).
The only "database" I was talking about was describing *which* options
exist, what are their types, etc.
Thanks for the feedback,
--
Oron Peled Voice: +972-4-8228492
oron@xxxxxxxxxxxx http://users.actcom.co.il/~oron
...there are two types of command interfaces in the world of
computing: good interfaces and user interfaces.
- Dan Bernstein, Author of qmail
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