=================================== #fedora-meeting: FESCO (2011-10-31) =================================== Meeting started by sgallagh at 17:00:21 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2011-10-31/fesco.2011-10-31-17.00.log.html . Meeting summary --------------- * init process (sgallagh, 17:00:41) * #683 - Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop (sgallagh, 17:03:32) * AGREED: ZifByDefaultForDesktop is refused as a Feature for Fedora 17 (sgallagh, 17:07:32) * #667 - Request to fix CRITPATH update process (sgallagh, 17:08:12) * AGREED: Drop proventester requirements for critpath, waiting one week for QA/developer discussion (sgallagh, 17:14:24) * ACTION: mjg59 will start a discussion thread on the development list about dropping the proventester requirement (sgallagh, 17:14:48) * #663 - Late F16 Feature Java7 (sgallagh, 17:20:26) * ACTION: dbhole to create Fedora 17 Feature Page for Java 7 (sgallagh, 17:23:53) * AGREED: Close Late F16 Feature Java 7 ticket. Rebuilds down to 1.6 have been resolved. (sgallagh, 17:24:22) * #683 - Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop (sgallagh, 17:24:53) * #684 - F17 Feature: ns-3 Network Simulator - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ns3 (sgallagh, 17:25:17) * AGREED: ns-3 is accepted as a Feature for Fedora 17 (sgallagh, 17:27:21) * Engineering Services Tickets (sgallagh, 17:35:44) * Fedora Engineering Services is looking for a wrangler. (nirik, 17:38:24) * Next week's chair (sgallagh, 17:36:41) * ACTION: mmaslano to chair the 2011-11-07 meeting (sgallagh, 17:37:42) * Open Floor (sgallagh, 17:38:00) Meeting ended at 17:46:11 UTC. Action Items ------------ * mjg59 will start a discussion thread on the development list about dropping the proventester requirement * dbhole to create Fedora 17 Feature Page for Java 7 * mmaslano to chair the 2011-11-07 meeting Action Items, by person ----------------------- * dbhole * dbhole to create Fedora 17 Feature Page for Java 7 * mjg59 * mjg59 will start a discussion thread on the development list about dropping the proventester requirement * mmaslano * mmaslano to chair the 2011-11-07 meeting * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * sgallagh (75) * mjg59 (28) * nirik (28) * mmaslano (13) * pjones (13) * t8m (12) * zodbot (10) * abadger1999 (9) * dbhole (8) * rbergeron (5) * ajax (4) * notting (4) * nb (2) * cra (2) * cwickert (0) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot 17:00:21 <sgallagh> #startmeeting FESCO (2011-10-31) 17:00:21 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Oct 31 17:00:21 2011 UTC. The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:21 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:28 <t8m> hello 17:00:31 <sgallagh> #meetingname fesco 17:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco' 17:00:41 <sgallagh> #chair notting nirik ajax cwickert mjg59 mmaslano t8m pjones sgallagh 17:00:41 <zodbot> Current chairs: ajax cwickert mjg59 mmaslano nirik notting pjones sgallagh t8m 17:00:41 <sgallagh> #topic init process 17:01:01 * notting is here 17:01:02 * nirik is here 17:01:04 <mjg59> Here 17:01:19 <mmaslano> hi 17:01:27 <pjones> likewise. 17:02:23 <sgallagh> I'd just like to give a birthday nod to Red Hat Linux 1.0, progenitor of the Fedora Project 17:03:12 <cra> how is is he? 17:03:14 <sgallagh> Ok, we appear to have quorum 17:03:22 <cra> old 17:03:32 <sgallagh> #topic #683 - Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop 17:03:40 <sgallagh> .fesco 683 - Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop 17:03:40 <zodbot> sgallagh: Error: '683 - Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop' is not a valid integer. 17:03:44 <nb> Red Hat Linux 1.0 was released on November 3, 1994 17:03:45 * nirik looks it up. nov 3rd, 1994 was its release. ;) 17:03:47 <sgallagh> .fesco 683 17:03:51 <zodbot> sgallagh: #683 (F17 Feature: Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/683 17:04:10 <sgallagh> nirik: They called it the Halloween release. This seemed close enough to me :) 17:04:25 <mjg59> I'm pretty sure that this is still stalled on the depsolver not being the same as yum? 17:04:36 * nirik is -1 on this at the current time for the same reasons as previously discussed. 17:04:47 <pjones> yeah, I don't know why this would have changed any 17:04:52 * t8m is -1 as well 17:05:03 <mjg59> Is the feature owner here? 17:05:10 <sgallagh> Yeah, I don't like the depsolvers disagreeing either. -1 17:05:10 <ajax> maybe if i ask twice i'll get a different answer! 17:05:21 <mjg59> ajax: Well, the feature owner doesn't seem to be hughsie 17:05:22 * notting is -1 per the earlier ticket about depsolvers (which likely was a result of this feature getting submitted for f17 ...) 17:05:23 <sgallagh> ajax: Are you familiar with the definition of insanity? :) 17:05:44 <mjg59> So I've no real idea what's going on here 17:05:51 <mjg59> Anyway, -1 until the depsolver issue is sorted out 17:06:06 <sgallagh> That's five -1 votes by my count. 17:06:14 <pjones> what the hell then, +1, just to be different ;) 17:06:30 <pjones> (ha ha not serious.) 17:06:33 <mjg59> pjones: Troll 17:06:47 <mjg59> Well, uh, that seems to have been surprisingly painless 17:07:32 <sgallagh> #agreed ZifByDefaultForDesktop is refused as a Feature for Fedora 17 17:07:39 <sgallagh> Shall we move on? 17:07:52 * nirik nods 17:08:04 <sgallagh> Ah, I also realized I skipped Follow-up business. 17:08:06 * sgallagh backtracks 17:08:12 <sgallagh> #topic #667 - Request to fix CRITPATH update process 17:08:19 <sgallagh> .fesco 667 17:08:21 <zodbot> sgallagh: #667 (Request to fix CRITPATH update process) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/667 17:08:33 <mjg59> Ok, so I dug through Luke's figures 17:08:55 <mjg59> Firstly, at most around 2.5% of critpath updates have had cases where a proventester has -1ed an update that otherwise had positive karma 17:09:01 <mjg59> I've looked at each of them 17:09:29 <mjg59> In several cases there was already a +1 from a proventester, so the -1 was only significant for overall karma 17:09:47 <mjg59> In another couple of cases the -1 only came after the update had already been pushed 17:10:02 <mjg59> And some more are just from the overall glibc updates where one update has several packages attached 17:10:20 <mjg59> There's basically close to 0 cases where the proventester requirement actually made a difference 17:10:31 <mjg59> And based on that, I'd recommend dropping the requirement for proventester on critpath 17:10:52 <t8m> so basically dropping the proventester concept altogether? 17:10:54 <nirik> interesting. 17:11:20 <mjg59> However I would appreciate someone else going over the data as well 17:11:31 <ajax> hooray for facts. 17:11:38 <sgallagh> mjg59: As opposed to the earlier proposal of only requiring proventester to override non-proventester -1? 17:11:46 <mjg59> sgallagh: Yeah 17:12:21 <nirik> so, how about we propose dropping proventester requirements, and wait a week for comment from QA and developers? 17:12:33 <t8m> nirik, +1 17:12:38 <sgallagh> I've never been a fan of process for process' sake. I'm not terribly fond of proventester to begin with. 17:12:40 <mmaslano> nirik: sounds good +1 17:12:47 * nirik is willing to try it 17:12:50 <sgallagh> +1 to nirik's proposal 17:13:01 <ajax> +1 17:13:03 <pjones> +1 17:13:09 <notting> +1 17:13:10 <mjg59> At most I think there's 2 critpath updates ever where proventester has made a significant difference to the outcome 17:13:19 <mjg59> So, +1 17:13:50 <sgallagh> So #proposal: Drop proventester requirements for critpath, waiting one week for QA/developer discussion 17:13:51 <nirik> does someone want to start a thread on this on devel ? (I can if no one else wants to, but mjg59 might be best with the data) 17:13:54 <sgallagh> Yes? 17:13:57 <mjg59> I'll do it 17:14:24 <sgallagh> #agreed Drop proventester requirements for critpath, waiting one week for QA/developer discussion 17:14:48 <sgallagh> #action mjg59 will start a discussion thread on the development list about dropping the proventester requirement 17:14:58 <sgallagh> Anything further to discuss here for now? 17:15:26 <sgallagh> Actually, I'd like to make one suggestion 17:15:26 * nirik has nothing 17:15:42 <nirik> although I suppose I could stop doing proventesters meetings if we drop that group. :) 17:15:42 <nb> yeah, since really proventester doesn't require much to join anyway 17:15:44 <sgallagh> Let's not drop the CRITPATH concept altogether. I think it's reasonable to leave a minimum karma requirement on CRITPATH 17:15:50 <sgallagh> Without requiring special testers 17:15:58 <mjg59> Yes, I wasn't suggesting droping the distinction 17:16:01 <mjg59> Merely the proventester component 17:16:05 <pjones> I don't think anybody had suggested dropping critpath 17:16:09 <nirik> yeah, I was proposing: "s/proventester/logged in account holder/g' 17:16:14 <sgallagh> mjg59: I wasn't sure. That's why I'm looking for clarification 17:17:02 <sgallagh> Ok, so no argument there? 17:17:09 <t8m> nirik, what about having just regular people interested in testing meetings? 17:17:26 <sgallagh> t8m: Isn't that what bugzappers and QA meetings are for? 17:17:33 <nirik> t8m: sure, could do that, but not many people have showed up and all of them have been proventesters. ;( 17:17:55 <pjones> sgallagh: yes, and we already have far too many different kinds. 17:17:59 <t8m> nirik, then probably dropping it is fine 17:18:46 <sgallagh> Ok, shall we move on? 17:18:46 <nirik> yeah. 17:18:48 <mmaslano> there was suggestions for lower number of packages in critpath, but I'm not sure how that ends... 17:19:09 <sgallagh> mmaslano: I think it probably becomes less of an issue if we drop the proventester requirement 17:19:25 <sgallagh> I propose to wait and see if that's still a problem. 17:19:26 <mmaslano> ok 17:20:12 <sgallagh> Moving on 17:20:26 <sgallagh> #topic #663 - Late F16 Feature Java7 17:20:26 <sgallagh> .fesco 663 17:20:27 <zodbot> sgallagh: #663 (Late F16 Feature Java7) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/663 17:20:56 * dbhole is here for any issues about that one 17:20:58 <sgallagh> According to the ticket, there is an update pending to finish this 17:21:00 <nirik> all has been rebuilt... I'd say close this now. 17:21:08 <pjones> end it 17:21:14 <dbhole> so everything is now resolved, all Java packages are now built with 1.6 17:21:14 <sgallagh> dbhole: Did you open a bug and propose blocker status? 17:21:23 <dbhole> +1 from me 17:21:29 <sgallagh> I want to be sure that nothing ships on the DVD that's built with J7 17:21:45 <nirik> I think it's too late for that. 17:21:51 <dbhole> sgallagh: No. I don't think we need one though. Of the 4 remaining, libgda is the only one on the DVD, and the one on the dvd is built with 1.6 17:22:01 <dbhole> everything else is online only, so -day should be okay for that 17:22:11 <sgallagh> dbhole: Ok, good enough for me, then 17:22:12 <sgallagh> +1 17:22:25 <sgallagh> (For closing it) 17:22:31 <dbhole> +1 from me too 17:22:33 <nirik> yeah, close++ 17:22:54 <mjg59> +1 17:22:58 <sgallagh> dbhole: Do please open a Feature Page for F17, if one is not already there 17:23:05 <mmaslano> +1, close it 17:23:05 <sgallagh> I think we probably want to get this in shape early on 17:23:26 <dbhole> sgallagh: Yes, I will as soon as we start the 1.7 rebuilds 17:23:29 <sgallagh> I count 5 FESCo votes to close it 17:23:35 * dbhole hopes to start within a couple of weeks 17:23:53 <sgallagh> #action dbhole to create Fedora 17 Feature Page for Java 7 17:24:22 <sgallagh> #agreed Close Late F16 Feature Java 7 ticket. Rebuilds down to 1.6 have been resolved. 17:24:43 <sgallagh> Back to new business... 17:24:53 <sgallagh> #topic #683 - Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop 17:24:54 <sgallagh> .fesco 683 17:24:55 <zodbot> sgallagh: #683 (F17 Feature: Zif as default PackageKit backend for desktop users - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ZifByDefaultForDesktop) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/683 17:25:04 <nirik> we did that one. ;) 17:25:06 <sgallagh> Whoops did that one already 17:25:17 <sgallagh> #topic #684 - F17 Feature: ns-3 Network Simulator - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ns3 17:25:17 <sgallagh> .fesco 684 17:25:21 <zodbot> sgallagh: #684 (F17 Feature: ns-3 Network Simulator - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Ns3) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/684 17:26:12 <mjg59> This is the bit where we complain about the feature process and then +1 it, right? 17:26:24 <mmaslano> yes 17:26:25 <nirik> yeah 17:26:27 <pjones> mjg59: correct. 17:26:29 <sgallagh> No complaints from me. 17:26:35 <mmaslano> so +1 to ns-3 17:26:37 <mjg59> Blah blah feature process. +1. 17:26:37 <t8m> hmm, shouldn't we fix the process now? 17:26:40 <ajax> yawn. +1. 17:26:41 <sgallagh> +1 for the feature. No risk to Fedora if it's incomplete 17:26:42 <nirik> +1, good luck, do package early. 17:26:45 <notting> sure, why not. +1 17:26:45 <pjones> t8m: it's not our process. 17:26:51 <pjones> t8m: half the problem. 17:27:21 <sgallagh> #agreed ns-3 is accepted as a Feature for Fedora 17 17:27:24 <pjones> well, if that's +5, then I'll abstain in protest over the process. 17:27:32 <t8m> But we were talking about doing some proposals how to fix it? 17:27:40 <abadger1999> pjones: I think fesco could be the body to fix it... but it is a shared process. 17:28:09 <sgallagh> Shall we save that for Open Floor? 17:28:11 * nirik would love to see it fixed, but I think it would take a FAD or several folks working on a good proposal... 17:28:20 <abadger1999> t8m: maybe start by pinging rbergeron -- I bet she has more work than she knows what to do with and would be glad for someone in fesco to take the reigns of fixing this. 17:28:25 <nirik> I don't think it's something we can just fix in a meeting like this one. 17:28:40 <pjones> nirik: yeah 17:28:42 <abadger1999> nirik: +1 17:29:03 <mmaslano> abadger1999: we already commented process on her wiki page 17:29:13 <mmaslano> we might start again 17:29:55 <abadger1999> mmaslano: Yes, definitely take the existing work... but someone needs to be the driver. organize the meetings/FADs/ propose strawmen, organize the alternatives into coherent strategies, etc. 17:30:18 <mmaslano> rbergeron: ^ ? 17:30:55 <rbergeron> yeah, a fad, and I need to get past the next week. 17:30:57 * rbergeron sighs 17:30:58 <rbergeron> sorry. 17:31:40 <mjg59> Yeah this doesn't seem like the best timing for it 17:31:51 <mjg59> I think letting people get a release out is a reasonable priority right now 17:32:07 <t8m> of course 17:33:12 <rbergeron> i can only drive so many cars at once :\ 17:34:16 <sgallagh> rbergeron: switch to motorcycles. It's easier to jump between them 17:34:24 <rbergeron> sgallagh: just call me trinity 17:34:57 * abadger1999 proposes moving on and discussing this outside of meeting 17:35:03 <sgallagh> +1 17:35:09 <t8m> fine 17:35:44 <sgallagh> #topic Engineering Services Tickets 17:35:59 <sgallagh> abadger1999: Anything happening here? 17:36:09 <nirik> nothing much currently. 17:36:17 <nirik> please see me if you want to help out with them 17:36:39 <sgallagh> Ok, then... 17:36:41 <sgallagh> #topic Next week's chair 17:36:59 <abadger1999> nirik: Are you leading that now or does it need someone else to lead/co-lead as well? 17:37:01 <sgallagh> Who wants the conch shell next week? 17:37:17 <mmaslano> ok, I can take the next one 17:37:26 <nirik> abadger1999: well, it needs a driving force for sure. I'm happy to help, but I don't currently have the time to nag people, etc... 17:37:33 <abadger1999> <nod> 17:37:42 <sgallagh> #action mmaslano to chair the 2011-11-07 meeting 17:38:00 <sgallagh> #topic Open Floor 17:38:01 <abadger1999> sgallagh: Would you call that out in the fesco minutes? (FES needs a driver) 17:38:24 <nirik> #info Fedora Engineering Services is looking for a wrangler. 17:39:19 <sgallagh> Anything to discuss at the Open Floor? 17:39:44 <mmaslano> feature process? now or later in email? 17:39:57 <sgallagh> I'm hesitant to mention UsrMove, both because tl;dr and also I'm told that the Feature hasn't been updated as they were instructed to 17:40:25 * abadger1999 added a bunch of comments/questions to UsrMove -- unanswered as well. 17:40:29 <sgallagh> mmaslano: I thought we decided above that it should be handled outside of the FESCo meeting 17:40:37 <nirik> mmaslano: I really think it's more than we can handle here, but we could discuss ideas if you want. 17:40:37 <mmaslano> ok 17:41:03 * nirik thinks usrmove is a solution in search of a problem. 17:41:43 <t8m> nirik, +1 17:41:48 <t8m> at least somewhat 17:43:57 <sgallagh> Ok, so nothing much here? 17:44:13 <sgallagh> Anything else for Open Floor? If not, I'll end the meeting in two minutes. 17:45:06 * nirik has nothing. 17:46:11 <sgallagh> #endmeeting
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