On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 05:25:36PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > You know, I'd prefer if you take up your beef with "ls" first. Have you > ever compared the output of "ls" and of "ls | cat"? And that's just the > most obvious case. Yes, but the difference here is that "ls" does not re-implement something that is already available at the command line. > Generating slightly different output on a tty than when used in another > way is deeply rooted in Linux heritage. Autopaging is just a small step > forward in that area. Not sure I agree, but okay. > And how does that matter for Fedora? It doesn't I guess, but are you writing systemd for Fedora, or as a general replacement for SysV init? > > Is util-linux a systemd dependency? > > Yes, absolutely. systemd depends on util-linux for the gettys, for fsck, > for mount, for umount, for swapoff, for swapon -- all these commands are > more than just wrappers around kernel functionality and are pretty much > the Linux API for the respective functionality. Sure, but as far as I can tell, util-linux is not in the dependency list. > Hmm? Implicit --full when using a pager has been the default since quite > some time in systemd. Strange - I'm not seeing it in systemd-units-26-3.fc15.x86_64. > > Not really. All other administrators use exactly the same tools I do, very few > > of which behave like systemctl. Having to deal with command-specific behaviour > > only makes it more difficult to learn a new tool. > > Yupp, as I see it it eases an administrator's life. > > I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this, and leave it at > this. Sorry if that is disappointing. It is disappointing. Specifics aside, my general point is that administrators don't need hand-holding and understand that there are pagers available for use outside of the program itself. Imposing behaviour on users only results in the problems I've pointed out previously - inconsistent output, inconsistent behaviour, additional code, additional dependencies, unnecessary flags, learning curve, non-portability, and so on ad nauseum. I'd love to see it change, I'd even submit a patch but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. Thanks for taking the time to respond, anyway. /Aaron
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