On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 06:22:25PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 09:46:08AM -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 06:32:44PM +0000, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > > There are no essential services, which means any proposal that contains > > > the phrase "non-essential services" is already unimplementable. > > > > > You've said this many times and it seems that you do it to be > > obstructionist. The constructive way to deal with this is to start making > > a list of what people really mean by "essential" and then propose alternate > > words to use. > > Like Jesse said, my objection here is that using the word "essential" > just results in us being doomed to argue over what "essential" means. > A literal interpretation of "essential" means "start init and have it > launch a getty". I don't think anyone's advocating that that be the > outcome of a vanilla Fedora install. An alternative would be "Essential > for a traditional UNIX experience", which would seem to preclude dbus. I > don't think that's a rational outcome either. So we end up with > "Essential for providing an experience consistent with what we feel a > vanilla Fedora install should provide", which means you haven't actually > defined "essential" at all. So don't say "essential". Say what you mean. > > > I think, by essential, some people mean: > > > > start the bare minimum so I don't have to start any additional services to: > > > > ... I don't want anything but init and a shell [*] > > ... log into a getty > > ... log in over the network > > ... log into a desktop > > ... do any client-side operations > > That's my point. If people have different interpretations of "essential" > then any policy using the word "essential" is meaningless. You need to > define "essential" - and if you're doing that then you don't need to use > the word in the first place. > And my point is that instead of telling people "there are no essential survices" and therefore jsut leading people to argue about the meaning of a word, it's much more helpful to try to figure out these definitions that they are using the word to mean and then, if the word still bothers you, assign a different word then essential to it. -Toshio
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