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Today's Topics:
1. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Chris Adams)
2. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Jason L Tibbitts III)
3. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Micha?
Piotrowski)
4. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Richard W.M. Jones)
5. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Mike McGrath)
6. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor (Matthew Garrett)
7. Re: experimental systemd + initscripts repo (Bill Nottingham)
8. Filled Seat on the Fedora Packaging Committee
(Tom "spot" Callaway)
9. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Julian Aloofi)
10. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Tom "spot" Callaway)
11. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor (Fulko Hew)
12. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor (Matthew
Garrett)
13. Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor (Fulko Hew)
14. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Chris Adams)
15. Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability? (Laurent Rineau)
16. Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo meeting (2010-10-26) NEW
TIME! (Kevin Fenzi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:27:07 -0500
From: Chris Adams <
cmadams@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
20101027162707.GD11733@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> said:
> I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where
> is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is
> _important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where
> I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git
> repo url :)) link should be visible.
>
> In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)
Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system
with
Firefox 3.6.11, and the page is pretty garbled. There is something
about printing under the quotes near the top of the page (if I highlight
to copy I get a different block of text about "Printing made easy", and
there's a partially visible form field at the right that says
"rinters/Canon..."). Scrolling down, I've got another block about "A
worldwide community of friends" on top of "YOUR LIFE ON FEDORA".
Also, something about the layout makes it slow to scroll in Firefox (of
course, that's not hard to do).
I'm glad somebody is trying to make the site look better, but this is
not so good.
--
Chris Adams <
cmadams@xxxxxxxxxx>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough
trouble.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:32:29 -0500
From: "Jason L Tibbitts III" <
tibbs@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
ufatyk7oaua.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>>> "MP" == Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's
in page footer.
Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". (I can't tell you
why it's called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you
want to go.)
- J<
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:36:36 +0200
From: Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinnmVWtUu8GTJNb3y3fVcr8of2t1CKyS=
zjq-1h@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=ISO-8859-2
2010/10/27 Jason L Tibbitts III <
tibbs@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>> "MP" == Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>
> MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer.
>
> Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". ?(I can't tell you
> why it's called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you
> want to go.)
LOL :)
Indeed, I did not notice. I wonder why?
Kind regards,
Michal
>
> ?- J<
> --
> devel mailing list
>
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:37:15 +0100
From: "Richard W.M. Jones" <
rjones@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Chris Adams <
cmadams@xxxxxxxxxx>, Development discussions related
to Fedora <
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
20101027163715.GA28834@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:27:07AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> said:
> > I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where
> > is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is
> > _important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where
> > I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git
> > repo url :)) link should be visible.
> >
> > In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)
>
> Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system with
> Firefox 3.6.11, and the page
is pretty garbled.
And that picture of Paul Frields (I think) is pretty scary too :-)
Rich.
--
Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat
http://people.redhat.com/~rjonesvirt-p2v converts physical machines to virtual machines. Boot with a
live CD or over the network (PXE) and turn machines into Xen guests.
http://et.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-p2v------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:37:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mike McGrath <
mmcgrath@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
alpine.LFD.2.00.1010271137210.19071@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2"
On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Micha? Piotrowski wrote:
> 2010/10/27 Jason L Tibbitts III <
tibbs@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>> "MP" == Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
> >
> > MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer.
> >
> > Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". ?(I can't tell you
> > why it's
called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you
> > want to go.)
>
> LOL :)
>
> Indeed, I did not notice. I wonder why?
>
I might suggest... this is the completely wrong list to be discussing
this.
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites -Mike
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:01:39 +0100
From: Matthew Garrett <
mjg59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
20101027170139.GA12192@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:53:01AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> So I'm going to hijack this thread a little and ask if anyone can
> point me to a resource that can tell me (at the lowest level) what
> I need to interact with (what hardware bus I need to send messages on)
> to send the request for EDID info to a monitor and get the results
> so I can decode them. (I have the message format info, I just don't
> know where to send/receive the stuff.
/sys/class/drm/*/edid . You really don't want to do i2c from
userspace
if you can possibly avoid it.
--
Matthew Garrett |
mjg59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:03:59 -0400
From: Bill Nottingham <
notting@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: experimental systemd + initscripts repo
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
20101027170357.GC22263@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Petr
Lautrbach (
plautrba@xxxxxxxxxx) said:
> Since initscripts-legacy is complement to initscripts
> initscripts-legacy should have
> Requires: %{name} = %{version}-%{release}
Thanks, fixed in git.
Bill
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:53:34 -0400
From: "Tom \"spot\" Callaway" <
tcallawa@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Filled Seat on the Fedora Packaging Committee
To:
fedora-devel-announce@xxxxxxxxxx, Discussion of RPM packaging
standards and practices for Fedora <
fedora-packaging@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
4CC8590E.4050801@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Fedora Packaging Committee has filled its open seat. James Antill
has accepted the invitation to help Fedora improve and expand our
Packaging Guidelines.
This was a difficult decision, as we had many interested (and qualified)
candidates, and I would encourage any of them to attend and participate
in our public IRC meetings.
The Fedora Packaging Committee meets on Freenode IRC, in
#fedora-meeting, every Wednesday at 1600 UTC.
Thanks,
~spot
_______________________________________________
devel-announce mailing list
devel-announce@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxhttps://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel-announce------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 19:30:47 +0200
From: Julian Aloofi <
julian.fedoralists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
1288200647.6833.1.camel@Julians-Notebook>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Am Mittwoch, den 27.10.2010, 17:37
+0100 schrieb Richard W.M. Jones:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:27:07AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> said:
> > > I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where
> > > is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is
> > > _important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where
> > > I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git
> > > repo url :)) link should be visible.
> > >
> > > In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)
> >
> > Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system with
> > Firefox 3.6.11, and the page is pretty garbled.
>
> And that picture of Paul Frields (I
think) is pretty scary too :-)
>
> Rich.
>
Ha! ;)
Regarding the displaying problem in Firefox, I had that as well first,
but reloading the page solved it for me.
Regards,
Julian
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:34:21 -0400
From: "Tom \"spot\" Callaway" <
tcallawa@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To:
Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
4CC8629D.3080300@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 10/27/2010 01:30 PM, Julian Aloofi wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 27.10.2010, 17:37 +0100 schrieb Richard W.M. Jones:
>> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:27:07AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
>>> Once upon a time, Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> said:
>>>> I visited fedoraproject.org site to visit "Fedora Project Wiki". Where
>>>> is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer. Fedora wiki is
>>>>
_important_ source of information (is the only place known to me where
>>>> I can find a link to the page when I can find a link to systemd git
>>>> repo url :)) link should be visible.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, a new page looks very nice and modern :)
>>>
>>> Well, I went to see what you are talking about, from a F13 system with
>>> Firefox 3.6.11, and the page is pretty garbled.
>>
>> And that picture of Paul Frields (I think) is pretty scary too :-)
>>
>> Rich.
>>
> Ha! ;)
> Regarding the displaying problem in Firefox, I had that as well first,
> but reloading the page solved it for me.
Also, it is worth noting that the new website makes heavy use of
_javascript_, so if you have NoScript (or equivalent) running, you'll not
get a good view of the site.
:)
~spot
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:37:41 -0400
From: Fulko Hew <
fulko.hew@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTi=oQrhiy=zMmB8xOA8HC+R6jXhsmomN=
Dpu4bwk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Matthew Garrett <
mjg59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:53:01AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> > So I'm going to hijack this thread a little and ask if anyone can
> > point me to a resource that can tell me (at the lowest level) what
> > I need to interact with (what hardware bus I need to send messages on)
> > to send the request for EDID info to a monitor and get the results
> > so I can decode them. (I have the message format info, I just don't
> > know where to send/receive the stuff.
>
> /sys/class/drm/*/edid . You really don't want to do i2c from userspace
> if you can possibly avoid it.
>
But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device isn't
running Linux. :-(
I knew it was I2C, but on
what bus and 'how do I get there from here'?
It would have to be on the video interface/card(s) right?
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:59:02 +0100
From: Matthew Garrett <
mjg59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
20101027175902.GA13244@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device
> isn't running Linux. :-(
Yeah, this probably isn't the right place to be asking, then.
> I knew it was I2C, but on what bus and 'how do I get there from here'?
> It would have to be on the video interface/card(s) right?
Right. Your GPU will typically have a per-output i2c bus, and EDID is in
an eeprom stored at a well-defined address on that.
--
Matthew Garrett |
mjg59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:18:16 -0400
From: Fulko Hew <
fulko.hew@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with
external monitor
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinfQThb26ZP2iGpBvhrT3B+
DKEsMNqpqi90G6Vq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
On Wed, Oct
27, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Matthew Garrett <
mjg59@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
>
> > But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device
> > isn't running Linux. :-(
>
> Yeah, this probably isn't the right place to be asking, then.
>
I thought I'd try to ask, because if some Linux developer could tell me
how/where
some app like xrandr gets the data, then I could figure out how to
accomplish
it on my equivalent system.
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:22:40 -0500
From: Chris Adams <
cmadams@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To: Tom spot Callaway <
tcallawa@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Development discussions related to Fedora
<
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <
20101027182240.GE11733@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Once upon a time, Tom spot Callaway <
tcallawa@xxxxxxxxxx> said:
> Also, it is worth noting that the new website makes heavy use of
> _javascript_, so if you have NoScript (or equivalent) running, you'll not
> get a good view of the site. :)
Yeah, apparently that was the problem I was seeing. Honestly, making a
site that looks broken with NoScript is a bad idea, especially for a
user base that probably has a higher-than-average number of Firefox
users (and probably mode advanced users that are likely to use things
like NoScript). Requiring _javascript_ just to get the correct layout is
IMHO broken.
--
Chris Adams <
cmadams@xxxxxxxxxx>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet
Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 21:33:40 +0200
From: Laurent Rineau <
laurent.rineau__fedora@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: who broke fedoraproject.org usability?
To:
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMessage-ID: <
201010272133.40615.laurent.rineau__fedora@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8"
Le mercredi 27 octobre 2010 18:32:29, Jason L Tibbitts III a ?crit :
> >>>>> "MP"
== Micha? Piotrowski <
mkkp4x4@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
> MP> Where is the link to the wiki? It's in page footer.
>
> Actually it's right at the top; click "Contributors". (I can't tell you
> why it's called "Contributors" but clicking there takes you where you
> want to go.)
With my setup, where fonts are bigger by default, I cannot see the link
"Contributors" (it is behind the div #site-content). I have to decrease the
font sizes to see it.
--
Laurent Rineau
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LaurentRineau------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:41:06 -0600
From: Kevin Fenzi <
kevin@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo meeting (2010-10-26) NEW
TIME!
To:
devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMessage-ID: <
20101027134106.139c695a@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
===================================
#fedora-meeting: FESCO (2010-10-27)
===================================
Meeting started by nirik at 18:30:00 UTC. The full logs are available at
http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-10-27/fesco.2010-10-27-18.30.log.htmlMeeting summary
---------------
* init process (nirik, 18:30:01)
* Updates policy / Vision implementation status (nirik, 18:36:20)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy (nirik,
18:46:00)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Package_update_approaches (cwickert, 18:46:52)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Proposal:Package_update_policy (cwickert, 18:46:52)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Proposal:Package_update_policy (cwickert, 18:46:52)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas (cwickert, 18:46:59)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria (cwickert, 18:46:59)
* LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision (cwickert, 18:47:05)
*
LINK:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria#All_other_updates is different from
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates (cwickert, 18:51:02)
* ACTION: cwickert will work on new features repo ideas (nirik,
19:00:51)
* ACTION: SMParrish will work on metrics (nirik, 19:00:59)
* #416 Set EOL Date For Fedora 12 (nirik, 19:01:03)
* AGREED: F12 eol will be 2010-12-02, moving forward eol dates will be
the nearest weekday to 1 month from release (nirik, 19:07:33)
* Elections coming up. (nirik, 19:08:21)
* LINK:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations (nirik, 19:10:16)
* Kudos for F14 release (nirik, 19:10:39)
* #480 F15Feature - RemoveSETUID (
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID ) (nirik,
19:15:16)
* AGREED: the feature is approved. (nirik, 19:26:46)
* Open Floor (nirik, 19:26:50)
* LINK:
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224 (abadger1999,
19:27:32)
* break build inheritance between F14 and F15 and update deltarpm files
(nirik, 19:27:56)
* AGREED: Fesco is fine with the indicated plan
of mass tagging,
breaking inherit, and scrubbing old deltarpms for rawhide. (nirik,
19:35:31)
* Open Floor (nirik, 19:36:53)
Meeting ended at 19:39:44 UTC.
Action Items
------------
* cwickert will work on new features repo ideas
* SMParrish will work on metrics
Action Items, by person
-----------------------
* cwickert
* cwickert will work on new features repo ideas
* SMParrish
* SMParrish will work on metrics
* **UNASSIGNED**
* (none)
People Present (lines said)
---------------------------
* nirik (115)
* cwickert (51)
* pjones (29)
* ajax (24)
* abadger1999 (17)
* notting (16)
* mclasen (14)
* mjg59 (14)
* zodbot (9)
* kylem (9)
* SMParrish (6)
* wwoods (6)
* Southern_Gentlem (3)
* adamw (1)
* rbergeron (1)
--
18:30:00 <nirik>
#startmeeting FESCO (2010-10-27)
18:30:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 27 18:30:00 2010 UTC. The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at
http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:30:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:30:01 <nirik> #meetingname fesco
18:30:01 <nirik> #chair mclasen notting nirik SMParrish kylem ajax pjones cwickert mjg59
18:30:01 <nirik> #topic init process
18:30:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fesco'
18:30:01 <zodbot> Current chairs: SMParrish ajax cwickert kylem mclasen mjg59 nirik notting pjones
18:30:37 <pjones> yo.
18:30:39 <nirik> who all is around for meeting?
18:32:04 <pjones> just me and you I guess.
18:32:06 * notting is here
18:32:06 * nirik wonders if we have quorum today.
18:32:08 <pjones>
;)
18:32:10 <kylem> yo.
18:32:31 <pjones> mjg59 was around a few minutes ago.
18:34:11 * nirik waits a few to see if we get one more person for quorum
18:35:28 <mjg59> pjones: Hi
18:35:35 <mjg59> Sorry, briefly distracted
18:35:50 <nirik> cool. I think we can go ahead and get started.
18:36:01 <cwickert> am I late?
18:36:06 <nirik> cwickert: nope, just in time. ;)
18:36:09 <cwickert> ;)
18:36:13 <mjg59> cwickert: Fashionably so
18:36:20 <nirik> #topic Updates policy / Vision implementation status
18:36:20 <nirik> .fesco 351
18:36:20 <nirik> .fesco 382
18:36:22 <zodbot> nirik: #351 (Create a policy for updates) - FESCo - Trac -
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/35118:36:26 <zodbot> nirik: #382 (Implementing Stable Release Vision) - FESCo - Trac -
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/38218:36:31 <nirik> SMParrish was going to look at more stats stuff.
18:36:38 <nirik> Also, I talked with lmacken about bodhi stats.
18:37:08 <nirik> He was going to generate them for us so we could see what was in them, and also try and do a 'pre release' 'post release' split for f14
18:37:32 <nirik> the next bodhi version will allow (I think) running them from cron/regularly.
18:38:21 <nirik> It seems like we are not making much progress to finishing this up. Anyone have ideas on how we could finish things before next elections?
18:38:32 * SMParrish sorry I'm late.
18:39:01 <SMParrish> nirik: was travelling last week. just got home yesterday and have not had time to work on the metrics issue
18:39:14 <nirik> ok.
18:39:18 <cwickert> I think we still suffer from unclear
board statements
18:39:33 <pjones> cwickert: I think we're always going to suffer from that
18:39:52 <pjones> we should just interpret them as best we can and if that's really something they didn't want then we do it again :/
18:39:55 <cwickert> I was talking to some board members and they were not happy with the "only security and bugfixes" thing ether
18:40:42 <notting> and...? internal board politics are a matter for the board.
18:41:19 <mjg59> The board's statement explicitly says " Stable releases should provide a consistent user experience throughout the lifecycle, and only fix bugs and security issues. "
18:41:22 <nirik> I'd really like to see us try the current policy for a bit. It may be too conservative, but we can adjust it if so down the road.
18:41:42 <nirik> we also were going to look into a 'new features' repo.
18:42:46 <nirik> perhaps we could set action items and
people on the remaining tasks?
18:42:58 <nirik> SMParrish: work with lmacken on metrics ?
18:43:08 <cwickert> speaking of that, I was supposed to write a propsal on the new-features repo
18:43:19 <nirik> cwickert: yeah.
18:43:24 <kylem> i think this is mostly just a reflection fo the project as a whole, looking at #fedora-dveel you'd be hard pressed to find unilateral agreement on the interpretation of our vision.
18:43:58 <SMParrish> nirik: yes i will get with lmacken on the metrics issue
18:44:02 <pjones> nirik: yeah, I'm with you in that we need more observation to see what we've done.
18:44:03 <cwickert> i have two problems: it is hard to find the status quo as there are a lot of outdated update-something pages in the wiki now
18:44:25 <nirik> we should nuke or redirect the old ones to the current one.
18:44:30 <pjones> yep
18:44:40 <cwickert> the second
problem is: two weeks ago a lot of questions were raised in the meeting
18:44:48 <cwickert> but they have not made it into the wiki
18:45:13 <nirik> questions on the new feature repo? or ?
18:45:19 <cwickert> ys
18:45:21 <cwickert> yes
18:45:33 <cwickert> how things work in bodhi and all that
18:45:46 <cwickert> but they are not on
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas18:46:00 <cwickert> I guess I'll have to dig in the meeting logs
18:46:00 <nirik>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy18:46:25 <nirik> that should be the page maintainers look at/follow.
18:46:51 <cwickert> there is a few more
18:46:52
<cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Package_update_approaches18:46:52 <cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kparal/Proposal:Package_update_policy18:46:52 <cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Proposal:Package_update_policy18:46:59 <cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas18:46:59 <cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria18:47:05 <cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision18:47:15 <nirik> the last one is the vision from the board.
18:47:34 <notting> anything in the User: namespace should obviously not be policy
18:47:37 <pjones> seems like we should make a category template for the various User: Proposal: ones and tag them so it says something at the top of the page or something.
18:47:37 <nirik> the rest should be removed probibly. (Although we do still have things to implement from the implementation_ideas page)
18:47:52 <pjones> (not that I've got any idea how to do that on the wiki)
18:48:21 <cwickert> the problem is there are conflictins statements
18:48:22 <abadger1999> pjones: Could just
use {{draft}}
18:48:35 <pjones> nirik: I'm not sure I'm okay with us deciding to remove stuff under User: (unless it violates various codes of behavior of course)
18:48:38 <pjones> abadger1999: yeah
18:48:48 <abadger1999> pjones: Although you might want something that also says "rejected" or "alternative was implemented"
18:48:51 <pjones> abadger1999: I was thinking something a little stronger than that, but that's certainly the right idea.
18:48:52 <nirik> pjones: true. Althought we could add a 'note: this is NOT policy' or something.
18:49:22 <cwickert> e.g. the last paragraph of
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria is not exactly what
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy says
18:49:37
<pjones> nirik: yeah, something like {draft} but maybe a little more "don't use this as reference" since lots of people are used to reading draft documents as the canonical source for data ;)
18:50:03 <nirik> cwickert: about exceptions?
18:50:15 <cwickert> nirik, about criteria
18:50:33 * nirik is not following.
18:50:56 <nirik> The critical path / other updates sections?
18:51:02 <cwickert>
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_criteria#All_other_updates is different from
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Updates_Policy#All_other_updates18:51:12 <cwickert> at least slightly
18:51:47 <cwickert> the information should be one one single page to make sure we have no
contradictions and no redundancy
18:51:48 <nirik> well, I thought I copied it from the one page to the new one.
18:52:12 <nirik> yes, I copied Package_update_acceptance_criteria data into Updates_Policy
18:52:17 <nirik> where I messed up we should fix it.
18:52:38 <cwickert> ok, what else is left to do except a clean-up?
18:53:10 <cwickert> i guess
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Stable_release_updates_vision_implementation_ideas18:53:21 <nirik> if you see issues that are obviously me messing up the copy, just fix them. If it's something that should be changed, bring it up here and we can vote on it.
18:53:28 <nirik> right, we need:
18:53:31 <cwickert> i hope I can come up with a proposal for the next meeting, I'm just too busy in my dayjob
18:53:33 <nirik>
metrics: how well is this working
18:53:44 <nirik> new feature repo: if it's fesable
18:53:47 <cwickert> what kind of metrics would that be?
18:54:26 <cwickert> i mean, how to judge if something is working? can we count how many people are cheating in bodhi?
18:54:37 <nirik> anything we could gather that would apply to: "Project members should be able to transparently measure or monitor a new updates process to objectively measure its effectiveness, and determine whether the updates process is achieving the aforementioned vision statements"
18:55:23 <nirik> we can count numbers of updates, numbers of bodhi comments/tests, number of karma submitters, number of bugs, etc.
18:55:49 <cwickert> so? what do we gain when counting the number of comments in bodhi?
18:56:05 <nirik> an increase in testing?
18:56:07 <cwickert> if even rel-eng gives "proxy karma" without testing
18:56:23 *
nirik is happy to listen to any other metrics you think we should gather.
18:56:50 <cwickert> I'm sorry, I don't have any
18:57:07 <cwickert> but what I see at
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/openbox-3.4.11.2-5.fc14 makes me think we are not doing more testing than before
18:57:17 <wwoods> you're wrong.
18:57:20 <wwoods> provably so.
18:57:21 <cwickert> just an example, I'm sure there are plenty of this
18:57:33 <wwoods> that is an anecdote; the data say otherwise.
18:57:35 <nirik> the plural of anecdote is not data.
18:57:52 <nirik> anyhow, lets see what SMParrish comes up with and go from there?
18:58:05 <cwickert> wwoods, if two out of three testers are faking results, what have we gained?
18:58:17 <mjg59> One tester
18:58:25 <wwoods> furthermore, if
that were actually correct - what would be the correct solution? Do *less* testing?
18:58:28 <cwickert> well...
18:58:34 * nirik notes we are over 15min on this topic.
18:59:11 <cwickert> wwoods, not have technical limitations that make people abuse the guidelines.
18:59:29 <wwoods> finding problems with a process should probably cause you to look for ways to improve the process
18:59:32 <cwickert> anyway, I'm happy for all numbers we can gather, but I doubt they are meaningful
19:00:00 <nirik> ok, anything further on updates? or shall we move on?
19:00:01 <wwoods> so - constructive suggestions on that topic would be excellent! probably not here and now, though.
19:00:09 <cwickert> +1
19:00:51 <nirik> #action cwickert will work on new features repo ideas
19:00:59 <nirik> #action SMParrish will work on metrics
19:01:03 <nirik> #topic #416 Set EOL Date For Fedora
12
19:01:03 <nirik> .fesco 416
19:01:08 <zodbot> nirik: #416 (Set EOL Date For Fedora 12) - FESCo - Trac -
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/41619:01:11 <cwickert> can we also have somebody to clean up the wiki?
19:01:15 <nirik> Since F14 was pushed out a week, should we move EOL for F12 as well?
19:01:27 <nirik> cwickert: I can try, but I also have been very busy.
19:01:38 <pjones> nirik: yeah, we should keep them in lock-step I guess.
19:01:45 <cwickert> +1
19:02:12 <ajax> sure, why not
19:02:14 <mjg59> nirik: +1
19:02:29 <nirik> ok, +1 from me too.
19:02:36 <Southern_Gentlem> suggest 12/1/2010
19:02:44 <nirik> Further on this topic, instead of us voting on it, do we want to just setup a general rule?
19:02:50 <pjones> nirik: yes
19:02:57 <nirik> ie,
nearest weekday to 1 month from release.
19:03:00 <notting> ACK
19:03:04 <pjones> +1
19:03:07 <mjg59> +1
19:03:12 * mclasen is all for auto-EOL
19:03:13 <mclasen> +1
19:03:17 <ajax> +1
19:03:25 <nirik> that would make it 2010-12-02 for this case tho (2010-12-03 was suggested)
19:03:58 * notting is +1 to lockstep, +1 to auto-lockstep
19:04:20 <pjones> nirik: nearest to or first after?
19:04:31 <kylem> +1.
19:04:32 <nirik> pjones: we could do that I suppose.
19:04:41 <pjones> not that I really care.
19:04:41 * nirik doesn't feel too strongly either way.
19:05:22 <nirik> anyone object to 'nearest weekday 1 month from release +1 day' ?
19:05:37 <ajax> fine with me
19:05:50 <cwickert> same here
19:05:56 <Southern_Gentlem> why the +1 day?
19:06:11 <kylem> latency.
19:06:12 <kylem> :P
19:06:24 <nirik>
I guess that just makes it more complex.
19:06:42 <nirik> so, lets just do nearest weekday to 1 month after release.
19:07:07 <pjones> I'm thinking "first weekday after" just because that means we prefer mondays to fridays.
19:07:18 <pjones> (well, on or after. gah.)
19:07:27 <ajax> also fine with me.
19:07:33 <nirik> #agreed F12 eol will be 2010-12-02, moving forward eol dates will be the nearest weekday to 1 month from release
19:07:42 <nirik> pjones: I don't know that it matters...
19:07:59 <pjones> fair enough.
19:08:19 <nirik> Some topics that are just announcements/notices:
19:08:21 <nirik> #topic Elections coming up.
19:08:31 <nirik> elections are starting up for board, fesco, famsco
19:09:18 <nirik> Everyone should vote. ;)
19:09:25 <kylem> lol
19:09:27 <pjones> +1
19:09:31 <ajax> early and often.
19:09:33 *
nirik looks to see who is up from fesco...
19:09:44 <notting> ajax, cwickert, pjones, mjg59
19:09:45 <mjg59> Me, ajax, pjones, cwickert?
19:09:47 <mjg59> Yeah
19:09:52 <rbergeron> ...or nominate themselves for open positions :)
19:09:57 <nirik> Adam Jackson (ajax), Christoph Wickert (cwickert), Peter Jones (pjones), and Matthew Garrett (mjg59)
19:10:10 * nirik thanks notting for updating the page.
19:10:16 <nirik>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/SteeringCommittee/Nominations19:10:32 <nirik> moving on...
19:10:39 <cwickert> I haven't seen an announcement on devel list
19:10:39 <nirik> #topic Kudos for F14 release
19:10:42 * Southern_Gentlem crosses fingers that they all reapply for the job
19:10:58 <nirik> cwickert: yeah, not sure who is
coordinating this time. ;( will find out tho.
19:11:11 <notting> nirik: i think everyone's coordinating their own?
19:11:24 <notting> do we want to designate someone to post to the devel list?
19:11:31 <nirik> I'd like to thank all the maintainers, qa folks, users and rel-eng for making F14 such a smooth release. :)
19:11:37 <cwickert> +1
19:11:39 <nirik> notting: oh, usually there's a coordinator.
19:11:51 <cwickert> especially for QA, adamw does a great job
19:12:10 <nirik> seconded. ;)
19:12:27 * adamw would like to thank all the people who did all the work
19:12:57 <nirik> I can find out if there is a coordinator this time, and if not, at least mail the devel-announce list about nominations being open.
19:13:14 <SMParrish> +1 kudos to all
19:13:20 <notting> nirik: wfm
19:13:22 <cwickert> nirik, there was something in the board list about
coordination
19:13:24 <notting> nirik: thanks!
19:13:53 <nirik> ok, I had one f15 feature that I didn't note in time for the agenda. We could do it now, or wait until next week?
19:14:51 <cwickert> how about now?
19:14:54 <mjg59> Sure
19:14:55 <abadger1999> pjones, cwickert: Re: a template like {{draft}} I just made this for ya'll:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Template:Draft/declined Go ahead and change it if you want something slightly different.
19:15:12 <nirik> abadger1999: thanks!
19:15:15 * abadger1999 sorry for jumping in with that but has to leave soon
19:15:16 <nirik> #topic #480 F15Feature - RemoveSETUID (
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID )
19:15:16 <nirik> .fesco 480
19:15:17
<zodbot> nirik: #480 (F15Feature - RemoveSETUID (
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RemoveSETUID )) - FESCo - Trac -
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/48019:15:36 <pjones> abadger1999: excellent.
19:15:57 * cwickert looks
19:16:15 <nirik> I'm +1 on this. I don't know how hard it's going to be, but if anyone can get it to happen dwalsh can. ;)
19:16:39 <ajax> i'm only barely +1 to this since i still think capabilities are far too coarse-grained to be of much use
19:16:46 <mjg59> I'm also +1, though concerned about the degree to which things may end up breaking
19:17:01 <pjones> I'm +0 to this for the sam reason ajax is barely +1 to it.
19:17:02 <mjg59> I can't see it /reducing/ security, but I don't think it's as big a win as it
could be
19:17:22 <ajax> but f15's xserver is already shipping non-setuid, so, whatever.
19:17:50 <notting> ajax: sys_admin or raw_io?
19:18:01 <ajax> notting: both those and also dac_override
19:18:07 <mclasen> is the dependency list on the tracker bug complete ?
19:18:11 <mclasen> 24 sounds low...
19:18:29 <nirik> it does seem low yeah.
19:19:14 <notting> ajax: that doesn't remove much. if anything.
19:19:17 <ajax> notting: if that sounds like zero effective reduction in privileges, that's because it's no effective reduction in privs.
19:19:22 <ajax> so, like i said.
19:19:38 <ajax> hey cool we can use capabilities! if only that were meaningful!
19:19:50 <mclasen> would be good if the feature page had some advice on how to find out the 'correct caps' to use
19:19:56 <notting> i'm moderately for the idea, but it remains to see if we'll come
up with anything useful
19:20:17 <ajax> xserver might be a special case, but really anything that needs dac_override or sys_admin is trivially equivalent to root
19:20:27 <pjones> mclasen: the problem is that the capabilities are so poorly thought out that that's a non-trivial (and possibly non-meaningful) exercise.
19:20:41 <mclasen> and one that breaks at runtime if you get it wrong ?
19:20:48 <ajax> mclasen: indeed.
19:20:49 <pjones> yep.
19:21:41 <ajax> i would say i get the feeling the caps were designed by someone who had never tried to root a machine, but that would imply that i thought they were designed period.
19:21:54 <mclasen> so we need individual testing attention for each binary that gets that treatment, I guess
19:22:42 <ajax> yeah. again, if dan wants to drive that, great.
19:22:58 <notting> ajax: 'designed by someone who only wanted to remove setuid
from ping, other things are an afterthought'?
19:23:34 <ajax> notting: that's a bit closer, yeah.
19:24:27 <ajax> anyway. +1 to the feature even though it's of the most marginal utility.
19:25:04 <nirik> so where are we here...
19:25:11 <nirik> +3 I see
19:25:19 <cwickert> +1, see what it brings
19:25:31 <SMParrish> +1
19:26:13 <pjones> I guess I could be +1 despite limited utility. It's not a bad thing to do per se.
19:26:46 <nirik> #agreed the feature is approved.
19:26:50 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
19:26:55 <nirik> Anything for open floor?
19:26:57 * mclasen adds comments to the feature page and gives a +1
19:27:00 <ajax> hah! the bugs even cite Xorg as the example.
19:27:09 * ajax ahead of the curve
19:27:32 <abadger1999>
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/422419:27:39 <nirik> ah yes,
19:27:56 <nirik> #topic break build inheritance between F14 and F15 and update deltarpm files
19:28:07 <nirik> .rel-eng 4224
19:28:09 <zodbot> nirik: Ticket #4230 (task created): build tag override request for eclipse-3.6.1-2.fc14 || Ticket #4229 (task closed): Retire OpenOffice.org from F15 || Ticket #4229 (task created): Retire OpenOffice.org from F15 || Ticket #4228 (task created): Buildroot override request for libtorrent || Ticket #4227 (task created): tag request: dist-f14-override for libgda-4.2.0-1.fc14 || Ticket #4226 (defect closed): (11 more messages)
19:28:15 <abadger1999> Oxf13: You around for this?
19:28:16 <nirik> oops. thats not right. ;)
19:28:34 <ajax> eesh, this looks vile.
19:29:15 <nirik> yes, yes it does.
19:29:36 <abadger1999> This comment is probably the best
summary of the problem:
https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/4224#comment:619:29:51 <abadger1999> The initial report has the proposed solution.
19:30:31 <nirik> given that it falls back to the full rpm ok and that deltas are only somewhat usefull in rawhide anyhow...
19:30:32 <abadger1999> I think Oxf13 would like fesco input because we normally don't break build inheritance by itself... although we do in practice if we do a mass rebuild 9but once again, that would normally be later in the cycle)
19:30:42 <nirik> this is just f15 right?
19:30:48 <abadger1999> Correct.
19:30:55 * nirik whews
19:31:11 <abadger1999> It won't affect f14 as jnovy isn't going to push the new xz back.
19:31:19 <nirik> thank goodness.
19:31:32 <mclasen> whats the consequence of broken build inheritance ? people have
to build their stuff for rawhide ?
19:31:40 <mclasen> doesn't sound too onerous to me
19:31:55 <ajax> mclasen: yeah, f14 builds won't automatically bubble to f15.
19:31:56 <abadger1999> mclasen: Correct. A build for F14 won't automatically go to F15.
19:32:11 <nirik> if we nuke existing deltas does that mean we would need a compose to rebuild them all? (ie, a long ass one)
19:32:35 <abadger1999> nirik: No, the idea is that we'll only have deltas for packages built after that time.
19:32:41 <nirik> ok, good.
19:32:45 <notting> rawhide deltas are just against the prior tree
19:32:55 <abadger1999> nirik: The reason is that the final package on the user's system will have been built with the xz on the user's system.
19:33:07 <nirik> I'm fine with the plan then... tag, break inhert, nuke deltas, move on.
19:33:09 <abadger1999> nirik: And when the update package
was old, that's what's causing the breakage.
19:34:02 <pjones> yeah, I'm fine with this plan.
19:34:14 <ajax> works for me
19:34:22 <SMParrish> based on that I'm good with it
19:34:40 <nirik> that's +4 I think.
19:34:43 <mclasen> +1
19:35:01 <kylem> hrm.
19:35:04 <mjg59> +1, I think
19:35:05 <kylem> +1.
19:35:12 <mjg59> I can't see anything obviouly better
19:35:16 <kylem> i'd like t think about it more though.
19:35:31 <nirik> #agreed Fesco is fine with the indicated plan of mass tagging, breaking inherit, and scrubbing old deltarpms for rawhide.
19:35:34 <ajax> well, besides turning off deltas
19:35:52 <nirik> well, deltas are not usually that usefull in rawhide, unless you make sure to update every single day.
19:36:27 <nirik> and even then, if you had an day out of date mirror, etc.
19:36:40 <abadger1999>
Cool.
19:36:48 * abadger1999 has to vamoose now.
19:36:52 <ajax> yeah, i really don't see much benefit in drpms for rawhide
19:36:53 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
19:37:05 <nirik> any further open floor items? or shall we wrap up?
19:37:06 <mclasen> do we have a date for that event ?
19:37:33 <nirik> mclasen: I guess when rel-eng is ready... it should be announced, etc.
19:37:46 <mclasen> sure, sounds fine
19:37:54 * mclasen was just making sure its not happening tomorrow
19:38:40 <nirik> I think the new xz has landed, but the only harm right now is that deltarpms don't work.
19:39:10 * nirik will close out the meeting in a few here if nothing comes up.
19:39:13 <notting> right, and since they fallback, i wasn't thinking it was OMG critical
19:39:34 <nirik> yeah.
19:39:39 <nirik> ok, thanks for coming everyone!
19:39:44 <nirik>
#endmeeting
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