On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 09:33:26PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > Well, maybe we should discuss this when we actually ran into a real > problem instead of just "seeing patterns"? > Seriously, don't discuss these things to death in advance. The whole point of having these things in testing is to discuss them in advance. I'm taking a very moderate position on caution here, and I don't think it's unreasonable. > Well, it boils to the age old fact that software which is not used is > buggy. Simply by letting software rot for another 6 months bugs won't go > away. You have to push things into the distributions if they appear to > be ready, and they very much appear so to me in this case, and I managed > to convince FESCO of that. Was there a conversation other than this FESCO meeting? <http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2010-06-15/fesco.2010-06-15-19.35.log.html#l-446> There, I see this discussion: 20:51:41 <mezcalero> so, i would like to keep the options open, but i'd like to see the testing for the case "systemd as default" [...] 20:51:59 <mjg59> mezcalero: The feature owner is always free to decide to stop pushing it part way through the release 20:52:13 <ajax> and i'm happy to say no to anything you like ;) 20:52:33 <pjones> I don't have a problem with you trying to make sure it's ready to _try_ to use as default fairly early 20:52:41 <mezcalero> mjg59: well, yes, but i want to make clear that with this proposal this case is not unlikely 20:52:47 <mjg59> mezcalero: If you're confident that it'll behave itself, I don't have any problem with aiming for it to replace upstart - but I'd like to see the initial transition happen early, so we have good confidence that it works for everyone 20:52:47 <pjones> I think we need to have a longer discussion as to if that's what we're going to do though, even if you do have it ready. And it goes on, but it's clear that the decision made is: We'll go ahead with the feature as optional, and allow an attempt at making it the default, but that isn't a done decision. I'm not sure if you actually read this before or participated directly in the discussion, but if you have, it seems a bit disingenuous to characterize this as having convinced FESCO that systemd should be on default. Oh, I have found a later meeting, from August 3rd. There, the comments (after a brief discussion o updating the wiki): 20:05:40 <nirik> What do folks think on systemd? still too early to tell if it will be ready for f14? (I know it's not had that much testing yet). 20:06:05 <adamw> i think it would be useful to look at alpha feedback on that 20:06:09 <cebbert> is it still trying to dictate how the kernel gets packaged? [... different-topic python packaging comment elided ... ] 20:06:21 <notting> cebbert: have you filed a bug? [... different-topic python packaging comment elided ... ] 20:06:52 <dmalcolm> nirik: given that as it stands it's less featureful that ubuntu's version of the same, it's debatable that it's now a "feature" 20:07:05 <dmalcolm> nirik: hence F15, I think 20:07:11 <mclasen> nirik/adamw: I know lennart was working on a bugfix release of systemd todasy 20:07:45 <nirik> dmalcolm: yeah, no shame in moving it out a release... 20:07:49 <adamw> yeah, we're going to need one to fix the 100% CPU usage bug at a minimum. 20:07:58 <nirik> mclasen: great. 20:08:13 <mclasen> I'll try to make sure that it lands before tomorrow 20:08:18 <mclasen> if I can get hold of lennart 20:08:21 <adamw> ok 20:08:24 <adamw> thanks Which echos what I was saying earlier -- it's not a failure if systemd doesn't make F14. > Please, end this discussion for now, and restart it if we find a real > issue? That's not too much to ask for now, is it? I'm not quoting all of this to argue, but to bring it to your attention if you haven't seen already. Having a discussion at this point is absolutely appropriate if you want to get systemd in by default. Or if not at this point, as feedback from the alpha release starts coming in. I understand your desire to get your code out there in the real world. But Fedora really can't afford to have a marketing-disaster release right now. Because this is a far-reaching change to a core service, any problems people encounter will be amplified -- and amplified *way more* than my little complaints. I want to avoid that. -- Matthew Miller <mattdm@xxxxxxxxxx> Senior Systems Architect -- Instructional & Research Computing Services Harvard School of Engineering & Applied Sciences -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel