On Fri, 2014-08-22 at 17:08 +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > So if the goal of the platform is development and our target audience > are hobbyists, students, and developers, how can "simple enough for > non-technical users" be a criteria for inclusion of apps? I agree with you that targeting developers means we might indeed want to allow some complicated programs into the default install, but I also agree with Elad: we should still think really hard before doing so. devassistant, for example, is a complicated technical program that I have a lot of second thoughts about, but I haven't seen any objections to shipping it -- there seems to be consensus that that one is worth it for us. We should be extremely suspicious of complex technical programs like devassistant and firewall-config, including them only if the advantages are significant. This guideline will serve us well regardless of whether or not we decide to make an exception for firewall-config. Picking simple default programs is something we're much better at than other major distros, and should contribute to the appeal of Fedora Workstation. Frankly, I think firewall-config is probably too complicated for many hobbyists and the majority of students. Actually, many developers to. It's a power tool that looks like the sort of thing I would love if I was an expert in firewall configuration. I find it really hard to believe we need port forwarding on desktop machines, for example: that's just going to confuse the heck out of some pour soul who actually needs to forward a port from his router to his computer. Regardless of whether we keep it or not, I think we've done a good job selecting our default applications. This is a detail. :) > Accessing the internet does work out of the box, but FWIW a lot of > client and server development will not. Therefor I suggest we keep > firewall-config for now and continue to improve it's UI. Our understanding is that client and server development WILL work out of the box, unlike F20. The goal is that very few users ever need to configure the firewall. Our configuration can be seen at [1] and it looks sufficiently permissive to me. (Is there something else we need to address?) Whereas in F20 I spent much frustrating time trying to figure out why my network programs worked on other Linuxes but not Fedora, in F21 everything should just work, unless you're trying to use a system port. I frankly cannot think of any reason I would ever want to open firewall-config. Michael [1] http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/firewalld.git/tree/FedoraWorkstation.xml
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