On Fri, Jun 02 2023 at 8:52P -0400, Dave Chinner <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 02, 2023 at 11:44:27AM -0700, Sarthak Kukreti wrote: > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 8:28 AM Mike Snitzer <snitzer@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, May 30 2023 at 10:55P -0400, > > > Joe Thornber <thornber@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 3:02 PM Mike Snitzer <snitzer@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also Joe, for you proposed dm-thinp design where you distinquish > > > > > between "provision" and "reserve": Would it make sense for REQ_META > > > > > (e.g. all XFS metadata) with REQ_PROVISION to be treated as an > > > > > LBA-specific hard request? Whereas REQ_PROVISION on its own provides > > > > > more freedom to just reserve the length of blocks? (e.g. for XFS > > > > > delalloc where LBA range is unknown, but dm-thinp can be asked to > > > > > reserve space to accomodate it). > > > > > > > > > > > > > My proposal only involves 'reserve'. Provisioning will be done as part of > > > > the usual io path. > > > > > > OK, I think we'd do well to pin down the top-level block interfaces in > > > question. Because this patchset's block interface patch (2/5) header > > > says: > > > > > > "This patch also adds the capability to call fallocate() in mode 0 > > > on block devices, which will send REQ_OP_PROVISION to the block > > > device for the specified range," > > > > > > So it wires up blkdev_fallocate() to call blkdev_issue_provision(). A > > > user of XFS could then use fallocate() for user data -- which would > > > cause thinp's reserve to _not_ be used for critical metadata. > > Mike, I think you might have misunderstood what I have been proposing. > Possibly unintentionally, I didn't call it REQ_OP_PROVISION but > that's what I intended - the operation does not contain data at all. > It's an operation like REQ_OP_DISCARD or REQ_OP_WRITE_ZEROS - it > contains a range of sectors that need to be provisioned (or > discarded), and nothing else. No, I understood that. > The write IOs themselves are not tagged with anything special at all. I know, but I've been looking at how to also handle the delalloc usecase (and yes I know you feel it doesn't need handling, the issue is XFS does deal nicely with ensuring it has space when it tracks its allocations on "thick" storage -- so adding coordination between XFS and dm-thin layers provides comparable safety.. that safety is an expected norm). But rather than discuss in terms of data vs metadata, the distinction is: 1) LBA range reservation (normal case, your proposal) 2) non-LBA reservation (absolute value, LBA range is known at later stage) But I'm clearly going off script for dwelling on wanting to handle both. My looking at (ab)using REQ_META being set (use 1) vs not (use 2) was a crude simplification for branching between the 2 approaches. And I understand I made you nervous by expanding the scope to a much more muddled/shitty interface. ;) We all just need to focus on your proposal and Joe's dm-thin reservation design... [Sarthak: FYI, this implies that it doesn't really make sense to add dm-thinp support before Joe's design is implemented. Otherwise we'll have 2 different responses to REQ_OP_PROVISION. The one that is captured in your patchset isn't adequate to properly handle ensuring upper layer (like XFS) can depend on the space being available across snapshot boundaries.] > i.e. The proposal I made does not use REQ_PROVISION anywhere in the > metadata/data IO path; provisioned regions are created by separate > operations and must be tracked by the underlying block device, then > treat any write IO to those regions as "must not fail w/ ENOSPC" > IOs. > > There seems to be a lot of fear about user data requiring > provisioning. This is unfounded - provisioning is only needed for > explicitly provisioned space via fallocate(), not every byte of > user data written to the filesystem (the model Brian is proposing). As I mentioned above, I was just trying to get XFS-on-thinp to maintain parity with how XFS's delalloc accounting works on "thick" storage. But happy to put that to one side. Maintain focus like I mentioned above. I'm happy we have momentum and agreement on this design now. Rather than be content with that, I was mistakenly looking at other aspects and in doing so introduced "noise" before we've implemented what we all completely agree on: your and joe's designs. > Excessive use of fallocate() is self correcting - if users and/or > their applications provision too much, they are going to get ENOSPC > or have to pay more to expand the backing pool reserves they need. > But that's not a problem the block device should be trying to solve; > that's a problem for the sysadmin and/or bean counters to address. > > > > > > > The only way to distinquish the caller (between on-behalf of user data > > > vs XFS metadata) would be REQ_META? > > > > > > So should dm-thinp have a REQ_META-based distinction? Or just treat > > > all REQ_OP_PROVISION the same? > > > > > I'm in favor of a REQ_META-based distinction. > > Why? What *requirement* is driving the need for this distinction? Think I answered that above, XFS delalloc accounting parity on thinp. > As the person who proposed this new REQ_OP_PROVISION architecture, > I'm dead set against it. Allowing the block device provide a set of > poorly defined "conditional guarantees" policies instead of a > mechanism with a single ironclad guarantee defeats the entire > purpose of the proposal. > > We have a requirement from the *kernel ABI* that *user data writes* > must not fail with ENOSPC after an fallocate() operation. That's > one of the high level policies we need to implement. The filesystem > is already capable of guaranteeing it won't give the user ENOSPC > after fallocate, we now need a guarantee from the filesystem's > backing store that it won't give ENOSPC, too. Yes, I was trying to navigate Joe's reluctance to even support fallocate() for arbitrary user data. That's where the REQ_META vs data distinction crept in for me. But as you say: using fallocate() excessively is self-correcting. > The _other thing_ we need to implement is a method of guaranteeing > the filesystem won't shut down when the backing device goes ENOSPC > unexpected during metadata writeback. So we also need the backing > device to guarantee the regions we write metadata to won't give > ENOSPC. Yeap. > That's the whole point of REQ_OP_PROVISION: from the layers above > the block device, there is -zero- difference between the guarantee > we need for user data writes to avoid ENOSPC and for metadata writes > to avoid ENOSPC. They are one and the same. I know. The difference comes from delalloc initially needing an absolute value of reserve rather than a specific LBA range. > Hence if the block device is going to say "I support provisioning" > but then give different conditional guarantees according to the > *type of data* in the IO request, then it does not provide the > functionality the higher layers actually require from it. I was going for relaxing the "dynamic" approach (Brian's) to be best-effort -- and really only for XFS delalloc usecase. Every other usecase would respect your and Joe's vision. > Indeed, what type of data the IO contains is *context dependent*. > For example, sometimes we write metadata with user data IO and but > we still need provisioning guarantees as if it was issued as > metadata IO. This is the case for mkfs initialising the file system > by writing directly to the block device. I'm aware. > IOWs, filesystem metadata IO issued from kernel context would be > considered metadata IO, but from userspace it would be considered > normal user data IO and hence treated differently. But the reality > is that they both need the same provisioning guarantees to be > provided by the block device. What I was looking at is making the fallocate interface able to express: I need dave's requirements (bog-standard actually) vs I need non-LBA best effort. > So how do userspace tools deal with this if the block device > requires REQ_META on user data IOs to do the right thing here? And > if we provide a mechanism to allow this, how do we prevent userspace > for always using it on writes to fallocate() provisioned space? > > It's just not practical for the block device to add arbitrary > constraints based on the type of IO because we then have to add > mechanisms to userspace APIs to allow them to control the IO context > so the block device will do the right thing. Especially considering > we really only need one type of guarantee regardless of where the IO > originates from or what type of data the IO contains.... If anything my disposition on the conditional to require a REQ_META (or some fallocate generated REQ_UNSHARE ditto to reflect the same) to perform your approach to REQ_OP_PROVISION and honor fallocate() requirements is a big problem. Would be much better to have a flag to express "this reservation does not have an LBA range _yet_, nevertheless try to be mindful of this expected near-term block allocation". But I'll stop inlining repetitive (similar but different) answers to your concern now ;) > > Does that imply that > > REQ_META also needs to be passed through the block/filesystem stack > > (eg. REQ_OP_PROVION + REQ_META on a loop device translates to a > > fallocate(<insert meta flag name>) to the underlying file)? > > This is exactly the same case as above: the loopback device does > user data IO to the backing file. Hence we have another situation > where metadata IO is issued to fallocate()d user data ranges as user > data ranges and so would be given a lesser guarantee that would lead > to upper filesystem failure. BOth upper and lower filesystem data > and metadata need to be provided the same ENOSPC guarantees by their > backing stores.... > > The whole point of the REQ_OP_PROVISION proposal I made is that it > doesn't require any special handling in corner cases like this. > There are no cross-layer interactions needed to make everything work > correctly because the provisioning guarantee is not -data type > dependent*. The entire user IO path code remains untouched and > blissfully unaware of provisioned regions. > > And, realistically, if we have to start handling complex corner > cases in the filesystem and IO path layers to make REQ_OP_PROVISION > work correctly because of arbitary constraints imposed by the block > layer implementations, then we've failed miserably at the design and > architecture stage. > > Keep in mind that every attempt made so far to address the problems > with block device ENOSPC errors has failed because of the complexity > of the corner cases that have arisen during design and/or > implementation. It's pretty ironic that now we have a proposal that > is remarkably simple, free of corner cases and has virtually no > cross-layer coupling at all, the first thing that people want to do > is add arbitrary implementation constraints that result in complex > cross-layer corner cases that now need to be handled.... > > Put simply: if we restrict REQ_OP_PROVISION guarantees to just > REQ_META writes (or any other specific type of write operation) then > it's simply not worth persuing at the filesystem level because the > guarantees we actually need just aren't there and the complexity of > discovering and handling those corner cases just isn't worth the > effort. Here is where I get to say: I think you misunderstood me (but it was my fault for not being absolutely clear: I'm very much on the same page as you and Joe; and your visions need to just be implemented ASAP). I was taking your designs as a given, but looking further at: how do we also handle the non-LBA (delalloc) usecase _before_ we include REQ_OP_PROVISION in kernel. But I'm happy to let the delalloc case go (we can revisit addressing it if/when needed). Mike -- dm-devel mailing list dm-devel@xxxxxxxxxx https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/dm-devel
