On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 02:24:48PM +0100, Xavi Montero wrote: > Hi all. > > First, congrats to the coders that have made this available. > > Second, a question from a newbie in dm-crypt. > > THE QUESTION IN SHORT: > > How do I boot a protected system but not having to type the key at any > point? It is an unattended system. Simple answer: You cannot. More complex answer: You need a tamper resistant device to hold the key. This means you have to build or buy special hardware. What depends very much on the threat you face. > JUST A BIT MORE: > > The PC runs our software, but is located in another place, with another > people who don't have to have access to the system itself, but need the > machine to be local there. We reach the system over a DSL, via ssh. > > FULL DETAILS OF WHY I ASK THIS: > > While I use Linux from a decade+ ago, I've never had the need to crypt > data on hard disks. Now I have a need, I initially though dm-crypt could > be the solution but I'm not sure of how to do a thing that maybe others > have already been exploring. > > PROBLEM: > > I sell radio advertising of third-party broadcasters. We are automating > all and radios put a PC on each studio and we control it remotely. It is > needed locally because it is from there where the audio-spots are > casted, but we control when and where remotely. The software to put in > their PC is Linux-based and is ours. > > The radios are thousands of Km away and we do all on-line and by phone. > There are radios I've never seen in person. > > What I do up to now is to release a bootable ISO, the radio downloads it > and burns a CD. Boots from CD and the installer formats, installs and > then boots from the HD. The radio must then insert their net > configuration and config their router so I can access the machine from a > DSL line over ssh. > > Up to here, we have not used encription, because I trust very much the > people on the first stations I have had representation for. > > Now we are growing. We have 46 stations from other owners. As the > station number increases, I start to loose control of what they do with > that software and I don't want they "copying" the HD to give it to > "friends" and another person building a business that compete with me > based on my own system. Ah, here we have the risk you want to protect against. Now we can talk. Still not too specific. What exactly do you want to protect on the target system? The ads? The software that does them? Why is the system worth anything without your maintenance/administration? I would think that a copy is pretty useless to another radio station. If your threat is a competitor stealing the technology, then how difficult is it really to build it from scratch? And do not forget that the central side is not included in any stolen box. > I therefore thought to crypt the partitions. If radios give the full HD > to a friend... hey! doesn't matter, if their friends do not know the > passphrase, will not be able to read the contents even having a > full-copy. > > To avoid people entering into the live system, it does not have any > tty's avaiable (no one can log from the Keyboard) so no way to "run the > system and enter on it". The only way to copy our soft is to extract the > HD and plug into another computer as secondary, or boot that machine > from a liveCD. > > SOLUTIONS I'VE BEEN THINKING BUT I DON'T SEE FOR CLEAR: > > a) I thought of install dm-crypt and set some kind of "auto-mount". Of > course if passphrase is as simple as "blank", then no secret is there, > and for the "friend" it is easy to try and enter. This is not a > solution. A passphrase should be there. > > b) Nevertheless, if I have a passphrase, -as that is in a REMOTE > location from me- I would have to ask the admins to insert the key by > hand, thus they would know it. They could give the phrase to their > friends. No sense. The passphrase must be secret (at least up to certain > point -ie: not "clearly known"-). > > So if the system must boot, must have a passphrase and nobody has to > type it, only 3 solutions appear in my mind: > > 1) A script contains somewhere instructions with the plain-pass-phrase. > Although this difficults from "plugging and seeing content", this is not > too difficult to track or discover. > > 2) A script or binary-exe contains some kind of bainary version of the > phrase. Performs "mounting". While rigorously "crackable", it is not > "obvious". For a person knowing enough as to do this, can "crack" the > system, but probably a person having such knowledge would build a clone > of my system from scratch instead of intending to re-use it. > > 3) A script "queries" the passphrase to a central sever at the > boot-time. This way if they "copy" the HD, the pass is not ther. Of > course this has a hughe-big-disastrous disadvantage: If the "key-server" > (in our office) fails and the radio has to reboot that machine they will > not be able to boot. Even not having the passphrease on the HD, I really > dislike this method because of the dependencies. > > THE QUESTION: > > What do you reccomend? > > Thanks to everybody for helping, and again to the coders/maintainters of > dm-crypt for the job done. > > Xavi. I think as long as you do not control what hardware this is done on, you have no chance at all with enecryption, all you can do is to make it a tiny bit more difficult. Even though there is no tty, what does prevent the other side from installing your software in a virtualized environment and then just reading the key from a memory image? Right, nothing. Even physical access to memory is possible, just crash the machine, reboot fast without memory test and read the memory. Cooling the memory before that often makes it retain its contents for several minutes. And you can repeat this attack any number of times if it boots up and decrypts automatically. Next risk: How should the boot image identify which computer it is on? As long as you do not solve that, the image can be copied, regardless of encryption. If your passphrase generator is not very careful before it unlocks something runs ans checks all the boot code and the whole susyem running so far, an attakcer could just run it with, e.g. a modified dm-cryopt that stores/prints the passphrase. I think (and the histroy of IT security would agree) that this problem can basically only be solved with a closed system with physcal intrusion deteceion, i.e. ship them a system in a stell box they cannot open. Intrusion detection is typically done by having some sensors that notice opening and attacks (light, IR, UV, extreme temperature, strong vibration, holes drilled in the chassis, etc., and you need all of them) and that then wipe a RAM that is kept up by batteries that also power the intrusion detection system. Depending on the level of effort an attacker is willing to spend, you may get away with a box that is hard to open (e.g. a small safe). You may also be able to do something contractual, so that they have to give this box back and if it was opened it gets expensive for them. The attack on this is to claim it was stolen. My Advice: You need to analyze clearly what your risk is and what it means in financial loss when the risk is realizes (the attack succeeds). Then you need to understand the ciosts end risk reduction effect of possible countermeasures. Only then can you decide on what to do. Remember that IT security is risk management. That in particular does mean it does not deal with absolute security, but with risk reduction, i.e. reducing expected cost of attacks. In some situations the best course of action is to do nothing at all! Some possible advice (may not be applicable as you have not stated what you want to actually protect against): - Forget about encryption. It will not help and will cost a lot to implement and support (remember it has to be tied to that specific hardware and boot software to be worth anything). - Implement a remote tamper detection scheme. You can, for example, do checksums over the ROM, the Disk serial, the CPU serial, all kinds of application files, etc.. If it has been messed with, verify what has happened. Have a contractual penalty in place in addition. - Do only the initial intallation with the ISO and do the rest (the software you want to protect) over the network. Customize it for each customer so that you can identify who leaked it if leaked copies turn up. Have a legal reaction in place for that, e.g. a contract penalty. - Have the system both phone home (so that copies have a chance to alert you) and require phone-in maintenance (and stop working after, say 2 weeks without a phone in). This depends on what you actually want to protect against, i.e. is it better to have a copy work initially and then fail unpredictably, or is it better to not work at all? It could also exhibit random failures if unmaintanies (the sneaky option). - Think about shipping a welded shut box or a locked safe to the customer with the hardware inside. Would be expensive and may or may not be worth it. May also give the hint to the customer that whatever is inside may be valuable. You may also want to get IT security consulting on this if the risk to you from a successful attack is bad enough. I would offer my services commercially, but better get somebody that understands the local cultural and legal boundary conditions. This type of consulting is not cheap, so whether it is worthwhile having really depends on the potential financial damage to you. Arno -- Arno Wagner, Dr. sc. techn., Dipl. Inform., CISSP -- Email: arno@xxxxxxxxxxx GnuPG: ID: 1E25338F FP: 0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F ---- Cuddly UI's are the manifestation of wishful thinking. -- Dylan Evans If it's in the news, don't worry about it. The very definition of "news" is "something that hardly ever happens." -- Bruce Schneier _______________________________________________ dm-crypt mailing list dm-crypt@xxxxxxxx http://www.saout.de/mailman/listinfo/dm-crypt
