On 08/16/17 08:09, Tom Rini wrote: > On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 08:22:01PM -0700, Frank Rowand wrote: >> On 08/15/17 17:42, Tom Rini wrote: >>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 04:50:40PM -0700, Frank Rowand wrote: >>>> On 08/15/17 14:15, Tom Rini wrote: >>>>> With support for stacked overlays being part of libfdt it is now >>>>> possible and likely that overlays which require __symbols__ will be >>>>> applied to the dtb files generated by the kernel. This is done by >>>>> passing -@ to dtc. This does increase the filesize (and resident memory >>>>> usage) based on the number of __symbol__ entries added to match the >>>>> contents of the dts. >>>>> >>>>> Cc: Rob Herring <robh+dt@xxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Cc: Frank Rowand <frowand.list@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Cc: Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Cc: Michal Marek <mmarek@xxxxxxxx> >>>>> Cc: Pantelis Antoniou <pantelis.antoniou@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Cc: devicetree@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Cc: linux-kernel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> CC: linux-kbuild@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Signed-off-by: Tom Rini <trini@xxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> --- >>>>> In order for a dtb file to be useful with all types of overlays, it >>>>> needs to be generated with the -@ flag passed to dtc so that __symbols__ >>>>> are generated. This however is not free, and increases the resulting >>>>> dtb file by up to approximately 50% today. In the current worst case >>>>> this is moving from 88KiB to 133KiB. In talking with Frank about this, >>>>> he outlined 3 possible ways (with the 4th option of something else >>>>> entirely). >>>>> >>>>> 1. Make passing -@ to dtc be dependent upon some CONFIG symbol. >>>>> 2. In the kernel, if the kernel does not have overlay support, discard >>>>> the __symbols__ information that we've been passed. >>>>> 3. Have the bootloader pass in, or not, __symbols__ information. >>>> >>>> I also was hoping that other people might have ideas for additional >>>> approaches. >>> >>> Yes, please. >>> >>>>> This patch is an attempt to implement something between the 3rd option >>>>> and a different, 4th option. Frank was thinking that we might introduce >>>>> a new symbol to control generation of __symbol__ information for option >>>>> 1. I think this gets the usage backwards and will lead to confusion >>>>> among users and developers. >>>>> >>>>> My proposal is that we do not want __symbols__ existence to be dependent >>>>> on some part of the kernel configuration for a number of reasons. >>>>> First, this is out of step with the rest of how dtbs are created today >>>>> and more importantly, thought about. Today, all dtb content is >>>>> independent of CONFIG options. If you build a dtb from a given kernel >>>>> tree, everyone will agree on the result. This is part of the "contract" >>>>> on passing old kernels and new dtb files even. >>>> >>>> I hope that dtb contents are independent of CONFIG options, but I don't >>>> feel confident is stating that there is not such dependency. (Of course, >>>> whether to build a dtb can be dependent on a CONFIG option in the Makefile, >>>> but that is not the same concept.) >>>> >>>> The only existing rule that I am aware of that helps avoid a dts dependency >>>> on kernel CONFIG options is that included files can not be from general kernel >>>> header files; they must be in include/dt-bindings/. >>> >>> I'm fairly certain for in-kernel stuff at least, the assumption is >>> correct. >>> >>>> Should we add text to Documentation/devicetree/bindings/submitting-patches.txt >>>> that explicitly states that dts files are not allowed to contain any >>>> dependency on kernel CONFIG options? >>> >>> Certainly can't hurt. >>> >>>>> Second, I think this is out of step with how a lot of overlay usage will >>>>> occur. My thinking is that with maximally useful overlays being >>>>> available in mainline, lots of use-cases that we have today that result >>>>> in a number of DTS files being included can become just overlays. This >>>> >>>> I disagree with this. My _opinion_ is that overlays should be the exception, >>>> not the common case. Overlays require extra complexity in the various >>>> subsystems that interact with device trees. For an overlay to work, these >>>> subsystems must be able to react to changes made to the device tree by >>>> an overlay. The current mechanism is via notifiers, which only exist >>>> for a few subsystems. >>> >>> Ah. Now, I can't blame you for thinking with your kernel hat on, but, >>> you're thinking with your kernel hat on :) (And taking mine off for a >>> minute is why I changed my mind between when we talked on IRC, and what >>> I posted). Kernel run-time apply an overlay has various use cases that >>> I don't want to discount, but don't want to try and go in detail on >>> either. >>> >>> At heart, one of the issues here is that the Linux kernel is the >>> authoritative source of dts and dtb files. Assembling a dtb and N >>> overlays at some point prior to booting Linux, in order to give it a >>> complete and valid system is going to be a common case. Even setting >> >> Yes. When discussing overlay issues and technologies we should be very >> clear about whether the context is post-boot run time loading of an >> overlay or using overlays applied on top of a base dtb to create a >> dtb to be fed to the kernel for booting. These are very different >> domains. >> >> For the case of constructing a boot time dtb from a base dtb and one >> or more overlays my primary concerns are related to the complexity >> (and again fragility) of the approach. It is already quite difficult >> to read source dts files and dts include files and determine what the >> final dtb will contain. This has been the motivation for several of >> my debugging tools. Adding overlays to the mix will increase the >> complexity of understanding the final product (dtb), where the >> individual items originated, and what component to modify to result >> in a change to the final product. It will add the further challenge >> that applying overlays in different orders may result in different >> final dtbs (depending on how strict the rules for applying an overlay >> are). I agree that this technology has some valuable upsides and >> use cases, but I also fear the negative impacts. The trick lies >> in finding a way to meet the technology needs in a manner that >> successfully balances the costs and the benefits. >> >> I mentioned my concerns about the robustness of overlays applied to >> a running Linux system in another reply. It seems to me that >> applying overlays pre-boot is more robust as far as the driver and >> subsystem initialization is concerned, because the normal boot >> path will be used to process the resulting dtb instead of using >> an overlay loading path in the kernel. >> >> >>> aside all of the hobbyist board families out there, SoMs are a big >>> thing. Eval modules are a big thing. This turns not just enabling >>> these as a vendor but using them as a developer into a much less error >>> prone system. >> >> If I understand the eval modules concept, then using overlays to >> develop and test device tree changes is somewhat analogous to using >> kernel modules to develop and test drivers. Yes, this may make >> some device tree source development more efficient. And in other >> cases may actually make it less efficient. I don't see the impact >> as being very large one direction or the other. >> >> >>> To try and re-state my rational, if the Linux kernel needs some >>> safe-guards or other mechanisms to restrict what can be done on top of >>> OF_OVERLAY (which is not widely enabled in mainline), OK, that's >>> certainly a discussion to have and think about implications of. But, >>> the Linux kernel is the producer of most dtbs that will be consumed by a >>> variety of platforms. I feel it needs to generate the dtb that can be >>> used for all consumers, since it is the source of these resources. >> >> This has gone far off topic from the original issue you brought up, >> which is how, in the context of the Linux kernel build environment, to >> enable building a base dtb that contains the symbols that are needed to >> load an overlay. Can we return to the base topic? And if anyone wants >> to discuss the other issues start a new thread? > > Well, how about this? There certainly should be some discussion about > how in the context of the Linux kernel run-time, the various impacts of > overlays need to be handled. But for out of kernel pre-boot cases, I > believe __symbols__ always is the only answer that won't bring everyone > more pain down the line. What needs to happen before we can get to that > point, since the Linux kernel is the gate-keeper to how dtbs are built? And I believe the opposite. Symbols should only be included in a dtb if there is an expectation they will be useful for that specific dtb. I see overlays as being useful in a minority of cases, not the majority. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe devicetree" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
