On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 3:09 PM Simon Glass <sjg@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Hi Saravana, > > On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 at 19:48, Saravana Kannan <saravanak@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 12:55 PM Simon Glass <sjg@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 11:23, Rob Herring <robh@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 1:17 PM Simon Glass <sjg@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Saravana, > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 at 13:30, Saravana Kannan <saravanak@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The post-init-providers property can be used to break a dependency cycle by > > > > > > marking some provider(s) as a post device initialization provider(s). This > > > > > > > > > > Please can you add hyphens to avoid confusion? I believe this should > > > > > be 'post-device-initialization' throughout. There is no 'post' device. > > > > > > > > There is no 'post-device-initialization' thing either. Shrug. > > > > > > 'post-device-initialization' is intended to be an adjective and the > > > hyphens help to make that clear. > > > > I think it's clear enough, but I'll do it just for you :) > > :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows an OS to do a better job at ordering initialization and > > > > > > suspend/resume of the devices in a dependency cycle. > > > > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Saravana Kannan <saravanak@xxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > --- > > > > > > dtschema/schemas/post-init-providers.yaml | 105 ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > 1 file changed, 105 insertions(+) > > > > > > create mode 100644 dtschema/schemas/post-init-providers.yaml > > > > > > > > > > > > diff --git a/dtschema/schemas/post-init-providers.yaml b/dtschema/schemas/post-init-providers.yaml > > > > > > new file mode 100644 > > > > > > index 0000000..92eb9a0 > > > > > > --- /dev/null > > > > > > +++ b/dtschema/schemas/post-init-providers.yaml > > > > > > @@ -0,0 +1,105 @@ > > > > > > +# SPDX-License-Identifier: (GPL-2.0-only OR BSD-2-Clause) > > > > > > +# Copyright (c) 2020, Google LLC. All rights reserved. > > > > > > +%YAML 1.2 > > > > > > +--- > > > > > > +$id: http://devicetree.org/schemas/post-init-providers.yaml# > > > > > > +$schema: http://devicetree.org/meta-schemas/core.yaml# > > > > > > + > > > > > > +title: Post device initialization providers > > > > > > + > > > > > > +maintainers: > > > > > > + - Saravana Kannan <saravanak@xxxxxxxxxx> > > > > > > + > > > > > > +description: | > > > > > > + This property is used to indicate that the device(s) pointed to by the > > > > > > > > > > Should this be 'device node' instead of 'device'? > > > > I think device is more appropriate. Not every device node is a device > > (eg: the pinctrl map, the remote endpoints pointed to by > > remote-endpoints, etc). And with the property you are pointing to a > > device node that represents a device. > > I see what you are saying. It's just that this is a devicetree with > nodes, not a device model. So whether a particular node produces a > device is really a separate issue.. > > Anyway, it is only a minor thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + property are not needed for the initialization of the device that lists this > > > > > > + property. This property does not make a device (that's previously not a > > > > > > + provider) into a provider. It simply downgrades an existing provider to a > > > > > > + post device initialization provider. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + A device can list its providers in devicetree using one or more of the > > > > > > + standard devicetree bindings. By default, it is assumed that the provider > > > > > > + device can be initialized before the consumer device is initialized. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + However, that assumption cannot be made when there are cyclic dependencies > > > > > > + between devices. Since each device is a provider (directly or indirectly) of > > > > > > + the others in the cycle, there is no guaranteed safe order for initializing > > > > > > + the devices in a cycle. We can try to initialize them in an arbitrary order > > > > > > + and eventually successfully initialize all of them, but that doesn't always > > > > > > + work well. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + For example, say, > > > > > > + * The device tree has the following cyclic dependency X -> Y -> Z -> X (where > > > > > > + -> denotes "depends on"). > > > > > > + * But X is not needed to fully initialize Z (X might be needed only when a > > > > > > + specific functionality is requested post initialization). > > > > > > > > > > How about 'is requested after initialization of Z' > > > > Sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > + > > > > > > + If all the other -> are mandatory initialization dependencies, then trying to > > > > > > + initialize the devices in a loop (or arbitrarily) will always eventually end > > > > > > + up with the devices being initialized in the order Z, Y and X. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + However, if Y is an optional provider for X (where X provides limited > > > > > > + functionality when Y is not initialized and providing its services), then > > > > > > + trying to initialize the devices in a loop (or arbitrarily) could end up with > > > > > > + the devices being initialized in the following order: > > > > > > + > > > > > > + * Z, Y and X - All devices provide full functionality > > > > > > + * Z, X and Y - X provides partial functionality > > > > > > + * X, Z and Y - X provides partial functionality > > > > > > + > > > > > > + However, we always want to initialize the devices in the order Z, Y and X > > > > > > + since that provides the full functionality without interruptions. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + One alternate option that might be suggested is to have the driver for X > > > > > > + notice that Y became available at a later point and adjust the functionality > > > > > > + it provides. However, other userspace applications could have started using X > > > > > > + with the limited functionality before Y was available and it might not be > > > > > > + possible to transparently transition X or the users of X to full > > > > > > + functionality while X is in use. > > > > > > > > > > This seems strange to me. It seems like something that could be > > > > > implemented. That said, I understand that such an implementation could > > > > > become painful. > > > > > > > > It has been implemented. And cycle detection has been implemented. And > > > > yet we are still here needing something more. > > > > > > Sure, I understand that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > + Similarly, when it comes to suspend (resume) ordering, it's unclear which > > > > > > + device in a dependency cycle needs to be suspended/resumed first and trying > > > > > > + arbitrary orders can result in system crashes or instability. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + Explicitly calling out which link in a cycle needs to be broken when > > > > > > + determining the order, simplifies things a lot, improves efficiency, makes > > > > > > + the behavior more deterministic and maximizes the functionality that can be > > > > > > + provided without interruption. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + This property is used to provide this additional information between devices > > > > > > + in a cycle by telling which provider(s) is not needed for initializing the > > > > > > + device that lists this property. > > > > > > + > > > > > > + In the example above, Z would list X as a post-init-providers and the > > > > > > + initialization dependency would become X -> Y -> Z -/-> X. So the best order > > > > > > + to initialize them becomes clear: Z, Y and then X. > > > > > > + > > > > > > +select: true > > > > > > + > > > > > > +properties: > > > > > > + post-init-providers: > > > > > > > > > > What is 'init'? It seems to mean when Linux probes the device. In > > > > > U-Boot, devices all are bound at the start, but only probed (lazilly) > > > > > when used. For some device types there is then an 'init' step which > > > > > actually starts using the device, before which no hardware is > > > > > accessed. So the use of the word 'init' seems a bit vague to me. > > > > I'm using the word init as a short form of English word > > "initialization" to mean the device has been initialized and ready to > > provide its services. Whether that means you do stuff lazily or touch > > the hardware is irrelevant. For example, you can probe a device in > > Linux without ever touching any hardware register of that specific > > device. > > > > I intentionally didn't use the word probe (Linux specific) or get into > > specifics because it can depends on the bootloader/OS/whatever driver > > model. > > Sure, I understand that init means initialisation...my point is that > this depends on what is initialised at this point. > > 'probe' is used in U-Boot to mean that a bound device is activated. > > > > > So, I'd keep the naming as is. All the other suggestions are more > > confusing in my opinion. > > OK. I am not claiming that my suggestions are a lot better. I just > worry that post-initialisation is pretty vague, e.g. devices can go > through a few init steps. Anyway, I suppose we can deal with it later, > if this binding is not enough to get things working. Thanks Simon. I understand your concerns, but once you hit the need for this property in U-Boot, it'll be pretty obvious what it means in that context. Rob, can you pull this in please? -Saravana > > Regards, > Simon > > > > > -Saravana > > > > > > > > > > > > In general this binding seems liable to be specific to the OS being > > > > > used. It also seems to be a hint, rather than something that must be > > > > > parsed and used. However I suppose adding the suffix '-hint' would > > > > > just confuse things. > > > > > > > > > > How about 'secondary-providers' or 'minor-providers' or > > > > > 'delayed-providers' or 'deferred-providers'? > > > > > > > > > > Separately/alternatively I wonder if the target node is always going > > > > > to be inited later, for any device that uses it. If so, perhaps a > > > > > property in the target node would be better, something like: > > > > > > > > > > dispcc: clock-controller@2000 { > > > > > ... > > > > > minor-provider; > > > > > > > > That doesn't work if a node is 2 or more providers and only some of > > > > them are optional/post-init/deferred. > > > > > > That's right. It would be nice though, if the situation you describe > > > does not actually happen in practice currently.
