On Tue 18-10-22 10:21:08, Jeff Layton wrote: > On Tue, 2022-10-18 at 15:49 +0200, Jan Kara wrote: > > On Tue 18-10-22 06:35:14, Jeff Layton wrote: > > > On Tue, 2022-10-18 at 09:14 +1100, Dave Chinner wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 06:57:09AM -0400, Jeff Layton wrote: > > > > > Trond is of the opinion that monotonicity is a hard requirement, and > > > > > that we should not allow filesystems that can't provide that quality to > > > > > report STATX_VERSION at all. His rationale is that one of the main uses > > > > > for this is for backup applications, and for those a counter that could > > > > > go backward is worse than useless. > > > > > > > > From the perspective of a backup program doing incremental backups, > > > > an inode with a change counter that has a different value to the > > > > current backup inventory means the file contains different > > > > information than what the current backup inventory holds. Again, > > > > snapshots, rollbacks, etc. > > > > > > > > Therefore, regardless of whether the change counter has gone > > > > forwards or backwards, the backup program needs to back up this > > > > current version of the file in this backup because it is different > > > > to the inventory copy. Hence if the backup program fails to back it > > > > up, it will not be creating an exact backup of the user's data at > > > > the point in time the backup is run... > > > > > > > > Hence I don't see that MONOTONIC is a requirement for backup > > > > programs - they really do have to be able to handle filesystems that > > > > have modifications that move backwards in time as well as forwards... > > > > > > Rolling backward is not a problem in and of itself. The big issue is > > > that after a crash, we can end up with a change attr seen before the > > > crash that is now associated with a completely different inode state. > > > > > > The scenario is something like: > > > > > > - Change attr for an empty file starts at 1 > > > > > > - Write "A" to file, change attr goes to 2 > > > > > > - Read and statx happens (client sees "A" with change attr 2) > > > > > > - Crash (before last change is logged to disk) > > > > > > - Machine reboots, inode is empty, change attr back to 1 > > > > > > - Write "B" to file, change attr goes to 2 > > > > > > - Client stat's file, sees change attr 2 and assumes its cache is > > > correct when it isn't (should be "B" not "A" now). > > > > > > The real danger comes not from the thing going backward, but the fact > > > that it can march forward again after going backward, and then the > > > client can see two different inode states associated with the same > > > change attr value. Jumping all the change attributes forward by a > > > significant amount after a crash should avoid this issue. > > > > As Dave pointed out, the problem with change attr having the same value for > > a different inode state (after going backwards) holds not only for the > > crashes but also for restore from backups, fs snapshots, device snapshots > > etc. So relying on change attr only looks a bit fragile. It works for the > > common case but the edge cases are awkward and there's no easy way to > > detect you are in the edge case. > > > > This is true. In fact in the snapshot case you can't even rely on doing > anything at reboot since you won't necessarily need to reboot to make it > roll backward. > > Whether that obviates the use of this value altogether, I'm not sure. > > > So I think any implementation caring about data integrity would have to > > include something like ctime into the picture anyway. Or we could just > > completely give up any idea of monotonicity and on each mount select random > > prime P < 2^64 and instead of doing inc when advancing the change > > attribute, we'd advance it by P. That makes collisions after restore / > > crash fairly unlikely. > > Part of the goal (at least for NFS) is to avoid unnecessary cache > invalidations. > > If we just increment it by a particular offset on every reboot, then > every time the server reboots, the clients will invalidate all of their > cached inodes, and proceed to hammer the server with READ calls just as > it's having to populate its own caches from disk. Note that I didn't propose to increment by offset on every reboot or mount. I have proposed that inode_maybe_inc_iversion() would not increment i_version by 1 (in fact 1 << I_VERSION_QUERIED_SHIFT) but rather by P (or P << I_VERSION_QUERIED_SHIFT) where P is a suitable number randomly selected on filesystem mount. This will not cause cache invalidation after a clean unmount + remount. It will cause cache invalidation after a crash, snapshot rollback etc., only for inodes where i_version changed. If P is suitably selected (e.g. as being a prime), then the chances of collisions (even after a snapshot rollback) are very low (on the order of 2^(-50) if my piece of envelope calculations are right). So this should nicely deal with all the problems we've spotted so far. But I may be missing something... Honza -- Jan Kara <jack@xxxxxxxx> SUSE Labs, CR
