On 12/15/20 4:11 PM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:04 PM Johnny Hughes <johnny@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 12/14/20 8:25 AM, James Pearson wrote:
Nicolas Kovacs
Here's an interesting read which makes a point for CentOS Stream:
https://freedomben.medium.com/centos-is-not-dead-please-stop-saying-it-is-at-least-until-you-read-this-4b26b5c44877
tl;dr: Communication about Stream was BAD, but Stream itself might be a
good
thing. Here's why.
As others have said, it misses the _really_ important bit about the
traditional CentOS model which is to follow the RHEL ~10 year life cycle>
It doesn't matter how good/rock solid/whatever CentOS Stream turns out
to be, but if it only has a 5 year life cycle for each major release, then
it no good to me (and I suspect many others)
There is a 2 year overlap with the next version of stream as well .. in
this case CentOS Stream 9. How long is Debian or Ubuntu LTS maintained
for free?
5 years may not be long enough for you .. but it certainly pretty long.
And I am TRYING to get that extended. I may not be successful, we'll
have to see.
The article also mentions "CentOS will no longer be old, crusty, and
barely alive, trailing RHEL by months at times" - then why didn't Redhat
put resources into CentOS to improve that?
Do you have any idea how much money Red Hat is paying to maintain
CentOS. And they are maintaining CentOS 7, even now, until 2024. There
are dozens of machines and several administrators to maintain them.
Redhat must have known, that if they killed off traditional CentOS, then
users will simply go elsewhere for a RHEL rebuild ?
If you chose not to use CentOS Stream, that is up to you. What is the
OS of your TV set. What is the firmware of your computer. Those things
are now pretty much irrelevant and commoditized.
At some point the underlying OS is going to be much less important and
the important part will be the layered parts that contain your apps and
not the OS Layer.
If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine. There will be one available.
Someone will make one.
The real and complete vision of what CentOS Stream will become will not
be compolete until around the end of QTR1 2021. If you chose not to try
it, that is up to you. I truly think Stream will be a much better and
more quickly fixed OS when everything is in place.
I don't expect you to answer Johnny, but why didn't Red Hat wait until
Stream was "complete'" or ready, or whatever.
I know the above wasn't directed at me, but maybe it wasn't as much
redhat wanting to sell, but IBM wanting to buy (there is a difference).
IBM's revenue has steadily and steeply been going down, it had quite a
few train wrecks, topped off with plane crashes. IBM is still a very
large company, and still makes A LOT of money but for a large part with
a bunch of dinosaurs that they are stuck with, and someone spotted a meteor.
I agree that Redhat really screwed up this announcement - they would
have got a lot more kudos if they had announced CentOS Stream to exist
along with keeping the current traditional CentOS ...
Again .. pay 8 or more people the going rate to just maintain CentOS.
Buy the dozens of machines and pay for the datacenter, bandwidth,
hardware services for machines, etc. This is very expensive. Maybe the
company you work for will do that out of the goodness of their heart?
I guess I don't understand. Isn't Red Hat going to pay for CentOS Stream
engineers, hardware, etc? How much more would it be to use them to build
point releases? Won't much of the personnel and infrastructure be the same?
Is Red Hat going to just get rid of all the CentOS resources? I don't
understand why the resources maintaining CentOS 7, and 8 Stream, can't be
used to build CentOS 8.4/5 etc?
As bummed out as I am about this whole situation, and believe me i am.
But even I can clearly see that Red Hat has gone above and beyond the
requirements of open source software and I am quite tired of all the
'they should be happy to pay several million dollars a year to give away
a working product." If it is so easy or cheap to do .. then you guys do
it. I did it for 17 years. Much of my time was on top of a normal 40
hour work week.
Again, we all appreciate it. It's not you we're mad at.
Red Hat contributes to every major upstream project .. they maintain
several very key major projects. They let employees contribute to
projects and pay for them to work on upstream projects. how many things
do they have to do for free?
James Pearson
I understand all your points, and I get it, but the fact is Red Hat
committed to the roadmap (c.f.
https://blog.centos.org/2019/07/ibm-red-hat-and-centos/) and now they're
abruptly breaking a promise. One that is affecting a lot of already
overstressed and underpaid people. If they said this would happen at the
beginning of CentOS 8, or better CentOS 9, then fine. But now?
It sucks big time.
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