Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

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Meantime, over this side of the Pond, the RNIB has a reputation of being for old people.


See people rag on Narrator, but it's come on leaps and bounds.


So has Orca. I'd argue if you're on an LTS release, or a distro that makes it hard to upgrade your Orca, you get a poor experience of it. Looking at you, Debian and derivatives that ship with 3.3X instead of Gnome and Gnome stacks of 40-42.X. Don't get me wrong, the idea of stable, if old, software is great. But just as web browsers are updated for security. I'd like to see A11Y stuff updated as well. Admittedly, I can already imagine how much dependcy hell that would cause for something like Ubuntu or Debian or Mint however.

That being said I'm now wondering if Orca could be offered as an all in one bundle, such as an appimage or flatpack that could be plugged in and ran. I don't know if what I'm on about is possible, really.

Also having read up on the abuse, I'm just going to point out it's not a one time thing. Or limited to the NFB, large organizations have a history of covering up whatever they choose to. Look at Enron for the poster child of fraud, the Catholic Church or other religions for poster examples of how to cover up abuse though

Also, I'd be interested in reading up more on the NFB wanting MS to not develop A11Y tech for ear of competing. That sounds like the same thing MS was doing in the mid-late 90s as ar as anti competitive practices which led to the DoJ legal issues though.



On 8/16/22 17:56, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.


On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems, but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
skills and high expectations.
And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
choice.
Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact that
it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
organization in interpersonal staff issues.
And choice does not mean training center choices.
Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course in college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice in this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices will
reach the same end result.
In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
questions asked.
They would not have to fight to get it.
I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
software that the counselor wants them to have.
When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
enough to know he wouldn't make that up.

Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>; <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan
Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>; <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
them to buy window-eyes.
73
Butch
WA0VJR
Node 3148
Wallace, ks.


On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:

And where do these employers learn about jaws?
In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works exactly.
after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
program instead of a largely free one.



On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

  Karen,
  Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
  In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
  will
  use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
  If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
to
  learn one of the two.
  So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
employer
  will allow.
  Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
scripters
  available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
  So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
  business I can say is rubbish.
  Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
  chosen,
  the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
is
  best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
  When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
  purchases,
  where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
  interest
  to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
  expenditures do.
  Glenn

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
  Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
  <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


  The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
the
  rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
clients
  is quite poor.
  With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
  speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
  reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
  Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
are
  creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give you
  an
  exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
  Fs would likely say where do we sign?



  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

  True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
  and
  probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
  If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
advocate
  that
  the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
job.
  In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
  for
  work related situations.
  So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
  purchase a JFL product.
  Glenn
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
  Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
  <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


  there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
  list
  about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
  command line,  the comments were quite informative.
  Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
  market
  to the American rehab community.
  how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
  need
  for choices?
  How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
  one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
speech
  is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
  brings their needs to the table there.

  if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
  money for  them there, from their main source of income.



  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

  Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
FS
  would
  not be able to do the same.
  If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
  changer,
  and
  I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
  accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
  Glenn
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn@ervin.email>
  Cc: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>;
  <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


  Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
  bought
  by another company.
  Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
  for
  Linux.
  That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
can
  mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
  personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
  options
  for creativity.
  however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
  characteristics,
  hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
  To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
it
  were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
  efforts
  at
  inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
  tools
  for various  populations that were built into the system.
  Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
  least,
  the
  consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
  former
  gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
  Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
  Just my thoughts,



  On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

  I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
  JFL
  I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
  many
  more
  users into Linux.
  FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
  Orca.

  Glenn
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  To: <speakup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Cc: <Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
  Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
  Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)


  "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
writes:
KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
and
KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
has
KL>  to be expert, it is his job.

  Hi Karen,

  I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
qualifications.
  I
  also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
I
  believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
  inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
to
  find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
  informed.

  As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
what
  reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
  desktop
  with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
blind
  user
  who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
  text
  documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?

  And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
hired
  to
  improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
the
  matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
  kinds
  of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
  his
  job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
  and I
  appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
on
  other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
do.

  Regards,
  Milan









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