Yeah, Emacs has a shell mode, where the whole shell is a buffer, like a temporary file, one can just read and interact with, with a command line at the bottom for entry. Devin Prater r.d.t.prater@xxxxxxxxx On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 10:41 AM Linux for blind general discussion < blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > I disagree with the concept of the text stream as the most accessible > output. > For me, it is the text page. To this end I set up my environment to dump > almost all output into > a temporary file which I view with the vi editor. > For example, my vicmd command will open a file under my $HOME/bin > directory, allow me to edit it, and then chmod it to allow execution. > My vls command will execute the ls command with all arguments, put > the output in a temp file, and open that file with vi. Upon exiting it > will then delete the file. > Often with lynx, it is easier to print the current rendered page > to a file, shell out, and then view the page with vi. > By far my most useful command is v. This lets me run another command, > and review > its output with vi. > For me, it is simply easier to examine output data with vi than it is > with just speakup alone. > I imagine emacspeak has the same advantage, but I never learned emacs, > so I can't say so from experience. > > Rudy > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 04:36:22PM +0200, Linux for blind general > discussion wrote: > > It is worth noting that Karl's article linked to in the original post, > was > > not arguing in favour of programs like Mutt. He calls these types of > > programs full screen programs, and considers them to be less accessible > as > > well. The ideal interface for a blind user according to the article, is a > > program taking in a stream of text (commands) via standard input, and > > replying with a stream of text via standard output. > > It is also interesting that both Karl Dahlke (Edbrowse), and TV Raman > > (Emacspeak) identified a problem with conveying full screen programs via > > speech, but chose to solve it in very different ways. Karl Dahlke by > > reducing the interface to a command line (text in, text out) interface, > and > > TV Raman by conveying more context and semantic information via speech > > (gathered by hooking the internals of Emacs.) > > > > TV Raman's argument is presented in this paper: > > > > > https://www.cs.cornell.edu/info/people/raman/publications/chi96-emacspeak/paper.html > > > > Much of what he proposes there is now possible with modern accessibility > > API's though. > > > > Regards, > > > > Rynhardt > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 4:16 PM Linux for blind general discussion < > > blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > See to me, Thunderbird is entirely too cluttered by default. I don't > need > > > or want a calendar and search bar. I don't want or need to have to go > > > digging to turn those things off in first boot. TO me they should be > off by > > > default and opt in, not somthing a user has to go hunting to get rid > of on > > > first boot. > > > > > > You are doing the xact same config steps in a CLI email client vs a > gGUI > > > one. THe only difference is a CLI one exposes a lot more of the > settings. > > > It's like putting oil in a car through a hole in the hood, vs opening > up > > > the hood to put the oil into the engine. Both let you put the oil in, > but > > > one lets you get to far more of the engine than the other. > > > > > > That's the way I look at CLI vs GUI setup. Sure, you can get to the > same > > > settings in both ways, but a CLI exposes far more of the settings than > a > > > GUI does and makes it easier to view and change. There are, however, > things > > > like Mutt Wizard for, you guessed it, Mutt and sample configs though > > > whether a new user would know to look for them is a whole other > argument > > > but at the same time, I wouldn't expect a new user to know how to turn > off > > > the calendar in Thunderbird or hide the message pane or folder pane > either > > > if it's their very first time using Thunderbird.. > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 03:59:11PM +0200, Linux for blind general > > > discussion wrote: > > > > Hi! > > > > I sometimes have better luck with cli than graphical environment. > > > > To be honest Orca seldom comes up with a working braille environment > > > for me. > > > > ANd I have to create a special key file for the burlap if its not > there. > > > > Otherwise I have to fiddle around with tons of settings to make > braille > > > work as I want it. > > > > In cli it just works. > > > > And I can review the screen how I want to and I never have any issues > > > with brltty there. > > > > /A > > > > > > > > > 13 apr. 2022 kl. 15:24 skrev Linux for blind general discussion < > > > blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx>: > > > > > > > > > > I just fired up Thunderbird to check and yes. I have to tab past > the > > > calendar, the search bar, then the list of folders, then to the > specific > > > message I want. Okay that's 4-5, not 10 tabs....but that's on a brand > new > > > config however. To me...that is less effficient than pulling down my > > > premade .muttrc and typing mutt then I'm straight into the inbox with > zero > > > flufff like a search field, or a calendar or something getting in the > way > > > at all. yes. I can disable all that stuff. But on first run it is > there. > > > It's there and prompting you to set up a new account right away > without, at > > > least when I was checking it and this may be DE and WM specific, a way > to > > > get to the options menu to declutter Thunderbird's interface without > either > > > going through or quitting out of account setup. > > > > > > > > > > don't want a calendar at first boot. if I want to search messages > I'll > > > deliberately go and start a search, I don't want or need a search bar > > > hovering right above my folder that I need to tab through to get to my > > > emails, or a message pane. Just give me the list of messages and let me > > > config Thunderbird how I want, without a ton of stuff getting in the > way, > > > Thunderbird people...See to me, by default, Thunderbird is cluttered > with > > > stufff I, personally, don't need. For my use case, Mutt is simpler and > > > easier. The key binds make sense. M for a new mail, R to reply, D to > > > delete, and so on. Yes I had to add urlview to get URLs from a > message but > > > that is a simple process (at least for me) of pasting two lines into a > > > file, saving, and quitting that can be done with a graphical text > editor. > > > > > > > > > > On that note, I'll give a shout out to Micro for being a text > editor > > > that actually has sensible shortcuts. Much as I love Vim, the > shortcuts are > > > as you pointed out, all over the place as far as a : then something. It > > > makes sense once you grab the hang of it, sure. But....for beginners > it's a > > > learning curve, but the commands do make sense, :wq to wirite changes > and > > > quit the file for example. Chryis's stuff follows the desktop keybinds > as > > > much as is possible as well > > > > > > > > > > On that note though each WM/DE does things differently, see opening > > > apps up in Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, etc. The huge advantage CLI has (at > least > > > for me) is I don't have to deal with desktops and their varying A11Y > > > standards, such as Mate freezing up when a Chromium app is exited (or > on my > > > laptop, anything relaly...I think I need to just nuke and go with > something > > > decent there...) or Gnome's control center or Cinnamon or....I know > I'll > > > have Fenrir or espeakup working in one particular way that I can learn > > > without having to fight with a desktop or WM's idea of what shortcuts > are > > > best, or deal with DE or Wm maintainers who aren't up to speed or able > > > to/willing to fix A11yY issues. > > > > > > > > > > Yes for your average, every day user I'd agree that graphical > desktops > > > are better, but I'd also argue that using the CLI for things doesn't > really > > > hurt. I mean, 99% of tutorials start with open a terminal and type > this... > > > so a bit of CLI knowledge is, I'd say just as useful as being able to > use a > > > desktop. No you don't have to be a power user who lives in a CLI only > > > world, but at the same time CLI has its advantages as does a desktop > though. > > > > > > > > > > See if more CLI apps have sensible key binds...I'll recommend them. > > > Nano is horrific for this as far as that goes, a lot o the older > software > > > absolutely has key binds all over the place. I feel like there needs > to be > > > a giant list of CLI stuff with sensible key binds as well for easy > > > reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 08:32:59AM -0400, Linux for blind general > > > discussion wrote: > > > > >> so for some things, a CLI program is better and simpler with less > work > > > > >> involved (for example on Mutt I can just open up my Blinux list > > > folder, hit > > > > >> end, R, type then y to send, no need to tab 10 times then enter > then > > > ctrl+r > > > > >> then ctrl+enter to send this email), ... > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Where do you get all the tabbing 10 times and all that extra work? > > > You seem > > > > >> to have a highly unusual concept of how graphical email programs > > > work. For > > > > >> example, using Thunderbird, I was able to open up just my inbox, > > > press the > > > > >> shift+tab key once, which seems to be necessary only because of a > > > focus bug, > > > > >> press end to get to the bottom of the list, then enter on the > message > > > I > > > > >> wanted to read, this one in this case, select the exact text I > wanted > > > to > > > > >> quote above and nothing more, press control+r to reply, edit the > > > quote ever > > > > >> so slightly, just to add the ... at the end, go down to the > bottom to > > > write > > > > >> underneath the quote to answer the question, just as I would in > any > > > text > > > > >> editor, and when I'm ready to send the message, after > proofreading of > > > > >> course, which I always do, but that's an editor thing, not > something > > > > >> specific to email, I then just press control+enter to send the > > > message. I > > > > >> have very easy to use conversation threading, full navigation > > > capabilities > > > > >> that I normally see in a web browser, links just open up in the > > > default > > > > >> browser without making me have to jump through all kinds of > > > configuration > > > > >> hoops just to get that working, and best of all, configuration > itself > > > takes > > > > >> about 2 minutes from 0 to two email accounts ready to read and > > > respond to > > > > >> email, instead of taking weeks or even months to set up and > having to > > > try to > > > > >> figure out weeks later what is still going wrong and why as was my > > > problem > > > > >> when I tried to use Mutt, although I admit it was years ago that I > > > tried it > > > > >> and gave up on it, as I never could get external email on an IMAP > > > server > > > > >> working correctly; the only way I could use Mutt at all was when I > > > tried to > > > > >> run a home-based email server that was my user account @ > > > > >> some.dyndns-provider.domain, and of course that ended up going the > > > way of > > > > >> the dodo because already at that time email was something that > only > > > > >> corporate types and server operators with boxes that were much > > > beefier than > > > > >> mine in power-sucking data centers with T1 pipes and static IP's > could > > > > >> actually run effectively. I mean now I can just run my email from > a > > > VPS, > > > > >> which I do, but now we're back to the external email problem > again, > > > since I > > > > >> use IMAP on the server to let me use any client I want on any > device. > > > > >> Regarding IMAP, I couldn't even get Alpine working with that, even > > > though > > > > >> the settings are supposed to be there; I just couldn't find them, > and > > > this > > > > >> was fairly recently. In Thunderbird, I just add a new account, and > > > the worst > > > > >> case is that I may have to specify the IMAP and SMTP servers and > ports > > > > >> manually. But even doing this takes far less time to set up on a > new > > > machine > > > > >> than text-based email, especially Mutt. I will grant you that of > > > course I > > > > >> could just copy over configurations to a new machine, but that is > not > > > > >> limited to Mutt, since Thunderbird and even the browsers have the > > > ability to > > > > >> read saved config files that come from other machines. I'm just > > > referring to > > > > >> first-run setup, or if I ever need to make any changes to the > existing > > > > >> configurations, which is far easier to do in graphical email > programs > > > of all > > > > >> kinds. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> I think the real showstopper for me when it comes to text-based > > > applications > > > > >> is the sheer inconsistency between applications. On my graphical > > > desktop, I > > > > >> have certain functionality that just works no matter where I am or > > > what > > > > >> application I'm using. For example, alt+f4 will close this window, > > > > >> shift+arrows will highlight text to be copied or cut in most > cases, > > > that is > > > > >> anywhere that text can be selected, then I have the standard > > > control+x to > > > > >> cut, control+c to copy, then control+v to paste to the application > > > where I > > > > >> want the text to appear, whether that's in the same application > or a > > > > >> different one. In most cases, control+q also closes an > application, > > > and > > > > >> control+w closes the current window. These things all work 90% or > > > more of > > > > >> the time. With text-based applications, there is much > inconsistency. > > > Just to > > > > >> give an example, control+x cuts selected text in most desktop > > > applications, > > > > >> but it quits Nano, and in most graphical text editors, I press > > > control+f to > > > > >> find something, this even works in browsers, but in Nano, I have > to > > > use > > > > >> control+w. What? And we're not even gonna talk about things like > Vim, > > > or the > > > > >> dreaded EMACS, or all the other text editors out there, with the > > > exception > > > > >> of Micro, since it is on the path to rectify the consistency > problem > > > by > > > > >> using familiar keybindings for most things. The problem though is > > > that the > > > > >> functionality I mentioned in Nano, control+x to quit and > control+w to > > > find > > > > >> something, are limited to Nano, Pico and I think it's called > Pilot. > > > Most if > > > > >> not all other text-based editors have their own keybindings that > all > > > work > > > > >> differently. This is pretty much fine once I have made all my > choices > > > of > > > > >> favorite apps and either got used to the differences and > > > inconsistencies or > > > > >> reconfigured all their keybindings so that they're all the same, > but > > > for > > > > >> someone just sitting down in front of a computer for the first > time > > > just > > > > >> trying to edit a file or send an email, or even for someone doing > > > this for a > > > > >> long time, the consistency of the graphical desktop applications > and > > > the > > > > >> functionality they share that is implemented in much the same way > > > across > > > > >> applications makes me and many others feel more comfortable at the > > > computer > > > > >> and certainly makes us more productive. > > > > >> > > > > >> ~Kyle > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Blinux-list mailing list > > > > >> Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > > > > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > Rudy Vener > Website: http://www.rudyvener.com > Twitter: https://twitter.com/RudySalt > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > _______________________________________________ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list