On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 23:38:15 +0200 Heiko Baums <lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Am Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:33:39 -0400 > schrieb Brandon Watkins <bwat47@xxxxxxxxx>: > > > Systemd and pulseaudio are completely different pieces of software > > with different purposes. Comparing them like that just because of the > > author is comparing apples to oranges. > > Sorry, it is not. I see that PA is totally not complete and doesn't > support at least half of the professional use cases. And I see that it's > the same with systemd. So what's the difference? > > They are both developed by the same person who seemingly doesn't have > much knowledge about professional computer usage and only cares about > some desktop users. > > With PA it's currently not such a problem since I don't need to use a > distro or a desktop environment which forces me to install PA. > > With systemd it's worse since the init system is a very serious and > important piece of the system. And if this doesn't support every > professional use case and isn't proved to be really reliable, it just > shouldn't be made to a de facto standard. > > And if I can't trust PA how can I trust an even more important piece of > software written by the same person? > > Btw., look at systemd-cryptsetup. Yes, meanwhile my use case is filed > upstream and allegedly and hopefully fixed. But it shows that at least > one use case was just forgotten or in other words it was not well > enough thought out. The latter is the biggest problem. > > Like I said before, some of Lennart's ideas may, say, seem to be quite > interesting, and maybe sysvinit is also not the perfect init system. > But Lennart's software is just not implemented good enough. And here I thought that there were some SuSE people from udev team behind systemd... Do we always have to get personal? > > If somebody doesn't care about the professional users when writing on > software, would he really care about the professional users when > writing the other software? AFAICT professional = constructive: if you find a problem there is no point in admiring yourself and calling everyone else morons, help fixing it instead. Otherwise, please show me a piece of software which is free of bugs. > > I really haven't seen so many and so long discussions and so many > concerns and very negative opinions about a software than I have seen > about Lennart's software. And I'm not only reading this mailing list. > See e.g. pro-linux.de or heise.de (both in German). Every time when > there's an article about PA or systemd a lot of people are railing > against PA, systemd and Lennart. And it's definitely not only me. Seems to me that some people have way too much free time... > > There must be a reason, and the reasons are always mentioned. There are > bug reports upstream, but they are just ignored. Lennart mentions all > those "rants" in at least one of his documentations. So he even knows > about all those criticisms. What's he doing? He ignores them totally. In > the same sentence he just laughs at those people, and call them so to > say (not literally) stupid. > > Is this really a good and trustworthy attitude? I think, not. > > And all those comments here like "oh no, not this again", "Please guys, > not again..." or "Take your concerns upstream, ...", is really not > helpful. On the contrary this all is also an issue for downstream. See > the ongoing infiltration of initscripts by systemd here in Arch Linux. > Sorry to say that, but it's really not the best idea. And do you think it's a good idea to spam my inbox? Ah, right, I should unsubscribe. > > Keep PA and systemd totally optional including every part of it, and > everything is Ok. I'm sure nobody would mind. But as long as there are > people working on making both software a de facto standard and forcing > it on everybody, this discussion will never end. Not only here. Noone is forcing anything on anyone... > > Just take all those people who have a lot of concerns for some very > good reasons serious. Examples welcome... > > There wouldn't be so many, so long discussions every time PA, systemd > or Lennart Poettering is mentioned if this all was such a very good, > perfect and professional software. If this was the case then I'm sure > that everybody couldn't wait to get it and a lot of people would ask > when it will be available. Instead a lot of people on the web rail > against them. So think about that, and think long and good. > > Maybe there are a few use cases for which PA is working and for which > PA makes sense. But there are a lot of use cases for which PA does not > work. The same for systemd. So think about the use cases for which they > don't work. > > Btw., someone else here on this mailing list has mentioned a lot of > software which, as he said, do the same as systemd does allegedly > better than sysvinit, but on top of sysvinit and in a more UNIX like > way. There came not even one word, one short discussion about those > suggestions. It was not considered if those software could be the better > alternative. Instead the systemd fanboys kept on hyping systemd. That was Gentoo's OpenRC. Except the "Unix-like philosophy" (with the emphasis on philosophy) what is the fundamental difference between the two? > > If you buy a book at Amazon e.g., what do you read? Only the best > 5-star reviews or also the 1-star reviews? I tell you something. Not > always but a lot of times the fewer 1-star reviews are the better and > more realistic ones. I don't read reviews because relevant people you should listen to are too busy to write them. > > Heiko -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
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