2010-07-10 00:58, Raymond Yau skrev:
> 2010/7/10 David Henningsson <launchpad.web@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> 2010-07-09 18:23, Takashi Iwai skrev:
>>> At Fri, 9 Jul 2010 21:13:52 +0800,
>>> Raymond Yau wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The second one (Do not report underruns to the ALSA layer) is more
>> a
>>>>>>>>> change of behavior, which could be questioned. The arguments for
>>>>>>>>> removing that code are these:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * If pulseaudio gets an underrun, the normal way to end that
>>>>> underrun
>>>>>>>>> is to feed it with more buffers. This is different from the ALSA
>> way
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> dealing with underruns, which requires hardware buffer pointers to
>>>>> be reset.
>>>>>>>>> * In addition, underrun signals are delivered asynchronously from
>>>>>>>>> pulseaudio. This means that there might be more buffers on the way
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> pulseaudio when the underrun is reported, making the underrun
>>>>> obsolete.
>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, there is currently no known way to determine whether
>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> is the case or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think this helps for normal use-cases, so it'd be good to apply.
>>>>>>>> But, I prefer having a runtime option for such a behavior change
>>>>>>>> (although the default value can be the new behavior).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Care to add it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I can do that - it sounds like a good idea to have it
>>>>> configurable.
>>>>>>> Just so I understand you right, exactly how do you expect the user /
>>>>>>> application to configure it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose it can be simply added as an alsa-lib plugin config, i.e.
>>>>>> in SND_PCM_PLUGIN_DEFINE_FUNC(pulse) of
>> alsa-plugins/pulse/pcm_pulse.c,
>>>>>> add the code like below:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> int handle_underrun = 0;
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> snd_config_for_each(i, next, conf) {
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> if (strcmp(id, "handle_underrun") == 0) {
>>>>>> handle_underrun = snd_config_get_bool(n);
>>>>>> if (handle_underrun < 0) {
>>>>>> SNDERR("Invalid value for %s", id);
>>>>>> return handle_underrun;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> continue;
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> FYI, I modified the patch and applied to git tree right now.
>>
>> Thanks! I've been on holiday this week but thought I would do it in the
>> following week. Only nice to see it being done :-)
>>
>>>> This behaviour is a little bit strange , using the same buffer size 128
>>>>
>>>> aplay -Dhw:0,0 --buffer-size=128 test.wav
>>>>
>>>> report underrun
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> aplay -D pulse --buffer-size=128 test.wav
>>>>
>>>> did not report underrun but the sound is distorted
>>>
>>> Other subsystem, other behavior.
>>> The detection of underrun is even unreliable on ALSA native, so user
>>> can't expect it'll get underrun.
>>
>
>
> Before this patch , using pulse device also report underrun
>
>
> When using hw device ,the sound is quite good , at least I cannot hear any
> distortion and the reported underrun only appear a few times on the
> terminal
>
>
> underrun!!! (at least 0.210 ms long)
>
> Did alsa-lib calculate 0.210 ms from hw_ptr , app_ptr and sample rate ?
Good question, I'm sure you can read that in the source :-)
http://git.alsa-project.org/?p=alsa-utils.git;a=blob;f=aplay/aplay.c;h=e1d8e6aab69642c2a57bd53b2d4ce9d2a24ad0b6;hb=HEAD
>>> The biggest drawback by this change is that whether the sound goes
>>> well or not isn't reported any more to the application layer.
>>> It's an unfortunate design, but it's life with PA.
>>
>> The question is - is there an application that detects the underrun
>> condition and actually acts on that condition? If so, this could be a
>> regression for that app. For other apps it's an improvement, for the
>> reasons originally stated.
>
> You have to ask jackd user , they usually fine-tune(increase/decrease) the
> period-size of jackd manually based on the occurrence of underrun in order
> to achieve the lowest latency
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think jackd users are not likely to run
jackd over the alsa-pulse bridge but rather run PA on top of jackd, so
that is not an issue.
> This give a false impression to the user that PA can provide low latency
> without under-run and pulse device is even perform better than hw device.
To complicate matters more, with PA in the stack you can have underruns
both on the client app <=> PA side, and on the PA <=> alsa-driver side.
So the false impression was there before, only it is slightly worse now.
>>> Reporting underruns to ALSA seems to do more bad than good, for these
> reasons:
>
> * If pulseaudio gets an underrun, the normal way to end that underrun is to
> feed it with more buffers. This is different from the ALSA way of dealing
> with underruns, which requires hardware buffer pointers to be reset.
> * In addition, underrun signals are delivered asynchronously from
> pulseaudio.
> This means that there might be more buffers on the way to pulseaudio when
> the underrun is reported, making the underrun obsolete. Unfortunately,
> there is currently no known way to determine whether this is the case or
> not.
>
> Do you mean PA server get underrun from the sound driver when you mention
> that
> if pulseaudio get underrun, the normal way to end that underrun is to feed
> it with more buffers." ?
I'm talking about the client-app <=> PA underrun here. The PA <=> sound
driver underrun is handled by PA internally, and, IIRC, is never
reported to the client app (even before the patch).
> The normal way for ALSA application is to prevent underrun occur rather to
> let underrun occur be selecting a larger period size or wake up more
> frequently to feed data to the sound card
Do you know an ALSA application which actually does this automatically,
i e selects a larger period size when it detects an underrun?
> PA developer often complain the driver did not provide accurate playback
> position by the pcm_pointer callback
>
> Did the pulse_pointer callback also provide accurate position of the pulse
> device ?
Yes, but it provides the pointer to the fake ring buffer (the alsa-lib
plugin system expects that all pcm plugins are ring buffers, which seems
to me like a design flaw).
// David
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