On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 11:12 AM Akihiko Odaki <akihiko.odaki@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> On 2024/07/30 12:03, Jason Wang wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 10:57 AM Akihiko Odaki <akihiko.odaki@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2024/07/30 11:04, Jason Wang wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2024 at 12:43 AM Akihiko Odaki <akihiko.odaki@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2024/07/29 23:29, Peter Xu wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 01:45:12PM +0900, Akihiko Odaki wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2024/07/29 12:50, Jason Wang wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 11:19 PM Akihiko Odaki <akihiko.odaki@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 2024/07/27 5:47, Peter Xu wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 04:17:12PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 10:43:42AM -0400, Peter Xu wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 09:48:02AM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 09:03:24AM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 26/07/2024 08.08, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 06:18:20PM -0400, Peter Xu wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 01, 2023 at 01:31:48AM +0300, Yuri Benditovich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USO features of virtio-net device depend on kernel ability
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to support them, for backward compatibility by default the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> features are disabled on 8.0 and earlier.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Signed-off-by: Yuri Benditovich <yuri.benditovich@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Signed-off-by: Andrew Melnychecnko <andrew@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looks like this patch broke migration when the VM starts on a host that has
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USO supported, to another host that doesn't..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This was always the case with all offloads. The answer at the moment is,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't do this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> May I ask for my understanding:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "don't do this" = don't automatically enable/disable virtio features in QEMU
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on host kernel features, or "don't do this" = don't try to migrate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> between machines that have different host kernel features?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Long term, we need to start exposing management APIs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to discover this, and management has to disable unsupported features.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ack, this likely needs some treatments from the libvirt side, too.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> When QEMU automatically toggles machine type featuers based on host
> >>>>>>>>>>>> kernel, relying on libvirt to then disable them again is impractical,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as we cannot assume that the libvirt people are using knows about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> newly introduced features. Even if libvirt is updated to know about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it, people can easily be using a previous libvirt release.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> QEMU itself needs to make the machine types do that they are there
> >>>>>>>>>>>> todo, which is to define a stable machine ABI.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What QEMU is missing here is a "platform ABI" concept, to encode
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sets of features which are tied to specific platform generations.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As long as we don't have that we'll keep having these broken
> >>>>>>>>>>>> migration problems from machine types dynamically changing instead
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of providing a stable guest ABI.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Any more elaboration on this idea? Would it be easily feasible in
> >>>>>>>>>>> implementation?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In terms of launching QEMU I'd imagine:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> $QEMU -machine pc-q35-9.1 -platform linux-6.9 ...args...
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Any virtual machine HW features which are tied to host kernel features
> >>>>>>>>>> would have their defaults set based on the requested -platform. The
> >>>>>>>>>> -machine will be fully invariant wrt the host kernel.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> You would have -platform hlep to list available platforms, and
> >>>>>>>>>> corresonding QMP "query-platforms" command to list what platforms
> >>>>>>>>>> are supported on a given host OS.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Downstream distros can provide their own platforms definitions
> >>>>>>>>>> (eg "linux-rhel-9.5") if they have kernels whose feature set
> >>>>>>>>>> diverges from upstream due to backports.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Mgmt apps won't need to be taught about every single little QEMU
> >>>>>>>>>> setting whose default is derived from the kernel. Individual
> >>>>>>>>>> defaults are opaque and controlled by the requested platform.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Live migration has clearly defined semantics, and mgmt app can
> >>>>>>>>>> use query-platforms to validate two hosts are compatible.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Omitting -platform should pick the very latest platform that is
> >>>>>>>>>> cmpatible with the current host (not neccessarily the latest
> >>>>>>>>>> platform built-in to QEMU).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> This seems to add one more layer to maintain, and so far I don't know
> >>>>>>>>> whether it's a must.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To put it simple, can we simply rely on qemu cmdline as "the guest ABI"? I
> >>>>>>>>> thought it was mostly the case already, except some extremely rare
> >>>>>>>>> outliers.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> When we have one host that boots up a VM using:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> $QEMU1 $cmdline
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Then another host boots up:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> $QEMU2 $cmdline -incoming XXX
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Then migration should succeed if $cmdline is exactly the same, and the VM
> >>>>>>>>> can boot up all fine without errors on both sides.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> AFAICT this has nothing to do with what kernel is underneath, even not
> >>>>>>>>> Linux? I think either QEMU1 / QEMU2 has the option to fail. But if it
> >>>>>>>>> didn't, I thought the ABI should be guaranteed.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That's why I think this is a migration violation, as 99.99% of other device
> >>>>>>>>> properties should be following this rule. The issue here is, we have the
> >>>>>>>>> same virtio-net-pci cmdline on both sides in this case, but the ABI got
> >>>>>>>>> break.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That's also why I was suggesting if the property contributes to the guest
> >>>>>>>>> ABI, then AFAIU QEMU needs to:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> - Firstly, never quietly flipping any bit that affects the ABI...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> - Have a default value of off, then QEMU will always allow the VM to boot
> >>>>>>>>> by default, while advanced users can opt-in on new features. We can't
> >>>>>>>>> make this ON by default otherwise some VMs can already fail to boot,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It may not be necessary the case that old features are supported by
> >>>>>>>> every systems. In an extreme case, a user may migrate a VM from Linux to
> >>>>>>>> Windows, which probably doesn't support any offloading at all. A more
> >>>>>>>> convincing scenario is RSS offloading with eBPF; using eBPF requires a
> >>>>>>>> privilege so we cannot assume it is always available even on the latest
> >>>>>>>> version of Linux.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't get why eBPF matters here. It is something that is not noticed
> >>>>>>> by the guest and we have a fallback anyhow.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is noticeable for the guest, and the fallback is not effective with
> >>>> vhost.
> >>>
> >>> It's a bug then. Qemu can fallback to tuntap if it sees issues in vhost.
> >>
> >> We can certainly fallback to in-QEMU RSS by disabling vhost, but I would
> >> not say lack of such fallback is a bug.
> >
> > Such fallback is by design since the introduction of vhost.
> >
> >> We don't provide in-QEMU
> >> fallback for other offloads.
> >
> > Yes but what I want to say is that eBPF RSS is different from those
> > segmentation offloads. And technically, Qemu can do fallback for
> > offloads (as RSC did).
>
> Well, I couldn't find any code disabling vhost for the in-QEMU RSC
> implementation.
It should be a bug (and I remember we disabled vhost when the patches
were merged). Have you tested it in a guest to see if it can see RSC
when vhost is enabled?
I suspect we need to add the RSC bit into current kernel_feature_bits:
/* Features supported by host kernel. */
static const int kernel_feature_bits[] = {
VIRTIO_F_NOTIFY_ON_EMPTY,
VIRTIO_RING_F_INDIRECT_DESC,
VIRTIO_RING_F_EVENT_IDX,
VIRTIO_NET_F_MRG_RXBUF,
VIRTIO_F_VERSION_1,
VIRTIO_NET_F_MTU,
VIRTIO_F_IOMMU_PLATFORM,
VIRTIO_F_RING_PACKED,
VIRTIO_F_RING_RESET,
VIRTIO_NET_F_HASH_REPORT,
VHOST_INVALID_FEATURE_BIT
};
As RSC won't be provided by TUN/TAP anyhow.
>
> Looking at the code, I also found the case of vhost-vdpa. vhost can be
> simply disabled if it is backed by tuntap, but it is not the case for vDPA.
True, technically, vDPA can fallback to SVQ, but it's another topic.
Thanks
>
> Regards,
> Akihiko Odaki
>
