On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:54:40 -0400 "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 09:47:14AM +0300, Marcel Apfelbaum wrote: > > Hi David, > > > > On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 6:49 AM David Gibson <dgibson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > On Thu, 22 Oct 2020 11:01:04 -0400 > > "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 05:50:51PM +0300, Marcel Apfelbaum wrote: > > > [...] > > > > > > Right. After detecting just failing unconditionally it a bit too > > > simplistic IMHO. > > > > There's also another factor here, which I thought I'd mentioned > > already, but looks like I didn't: I think we're still missing some > > details in what's going on. > > > > The premise for this patch is that plugging while the indicator is in > > transition state is allowed to fail in any way on the guest side. I > > don't think that's a reasonable interpretation, because it's unworkable > > for physical hotplug. If the indicator starts blinking while you're in > > the middle of shoving a card in, you'd be in trouble. > > > > So, what I'm assuming here is that while "don't plug while blinking" is > > the instruction for the operator to obey as best they can, on the guest > > side the rule has to be "start blinking, wait a while and by the time > > you leave blinking state again, you can be confident any plugs or > > unplugs have completed". Obviously still racy in the strict computer > > science sense, but about the best you can do with slow humans in the > > mix. > > > > So, qemu should of course endeavour to follow that rule as though it > > was a human operator on a physical machine and not plug when the > > indicator is blinking. *But* the qemu plug will in practice be fast > > enough that if we're hitting real problems here, it suggests the guest > > is still doing something wrong. > > > > > > I personally think there is a little bit of over-engineering here. > > Let's start with the spec: > > > >   Power Indicator Blinking > >   A blinking Power Indicator indicates that the slot is powering up or > > powering down and that > >   insertion or removal of the adapter is not permitted. > > > > What exactly is an interpretation here? > > As you stated, the races are theoretical, the whole point of the indicator > > is to let the operator know he can't plug the device just yet. > > > > I understand it would be more user friendly if the QEMU would wait internally > > for the > > blinking to end, but the whole point of the indicator is to let the operator > > (human or machine) > > know they can't plug the device at a specific time. > > Should QEMU take the responsibility of the operator? Is it even correct? > > > > Even if we would want such a feature, how is it related to this patch? > > The patch simply refuses to start a hotplug operation when it knows it will not > > succeed. > >  > > Another way that would make sense to me would be is a new QEMU interface other > > than > > "add_device", let's say "adding_device_allowed", that would return true if the > > hotplug is allowed > > at this point of time. (I am aware of the theoretical races) > > Rather than adding_device_allowed, something like "query slot" > might be helpful for debugging. That would help user figure out > e.g. why isn't device visible without any races. Would be new command useful tough? What we end up is broken guest (if I read commit message right) and a user who has no idea if device_add was successful or not. So what user should do in this case - wait till it explodes? - can user remove it or it would be stuck there forever? - poll slot before hotplug, manually? (if this is the case then failing device_add cleanly doesn't sound bad, it looks similar to another error we have "/* Check if hot-plug is disabled on the slot */" in pcie_cap_slot_pre_plug_cb) CCing libvirt, as it concerns not only QEMU. > > > The above will at least mimic the mechanics of the pyhs world. The operator > > looks at the indicator, > > the management software checks if adding the device is allowed. > > Since it is a corner case I would prefer the device_add to fail rather than > > introducing a new interface, > > but that's just me. > > > > Thanks, > > Marcel > > > > I think we want QEMU management interface to be reasonably > abstract and agnostic if possible. Pushing knowledge of hardware > detail to management will just lead to pain IMHO. > We supported device_add which practically never fails for years, For CPUs and RAM, device_add can fail so maybe management is also prepared to handle errors on PCI hotplug path. > at this point it's easier to keep supporting it than > change all users ... > > > > > > -- > > David Gibson <dgibson@xxxxxxxxxx> > > Principal Software Engineer, Virtualization, Red Hat > > > >
