21:59 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Websites - Who's Here? 21:59 < juank_prada> ok then lets go for the one click method 22:00 * juank_prada is here somehow 22:00 * CB6 is here 22:00 < ricky> I guess ianweller_food's at dinner now 22:00 -!- Irssi: #fedora-websites: Total of 21 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 20 normal] 22:00 < CB6> nope he's at food :P 22:00 < ricky> quaid: Are you around? 22:01 < ricky> All right, so I thought we'd just go through the tasks really quickly, and then continue discussing get-fedora 22:01 -!- nman64 [n=n-man@fedora/nman64] has quit Remote closed the connection 22:01 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Websites - Tasks 22:01 < ricky> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks 22:02 < ricky> No update on usability research yet, although as mizmo-out said, anybody help out by just getting people to download Fedora using various options, etc. 22:03 < ricky> quaid: Any update on the great CMS search, or is there too much docs stuff going on before release at the moment? 22:03 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk 22:04 < CB6> I thought that was already found? 22:04 < ricky> Nope, or at least I never saw any recent discussion about it on the websites, docs, or infrastructure lists. 22:06 < ricky> I guess this will probably come up more after the release - docs stuff must be pretty crazy now :_) 22:06 < ricky> **:-) 22:06 < ricky> fedoraproject.org/contact - thanks to ylynfatt for getting this page done 22:06 < ricky> Hopefully it'll reduce a lot of misdirected webmaster@ emails 22:06 < CB6> http://cmscritic.com/ 22:06 < ricky> Anybody have comments/suggestions for this page? 22:07 < juank_prada> i would reduce the screenshot size though 22:07 < ricky> Hmm, by how much? The text is already barely legible at the current isze 22:08 < ricky> **size 22:08 < CB6> http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ this site compares diff CMS 22:08 < ricky> Do you mean that it should be squarer? 22:08 < juank_prada> not really 22:08 < CB6> can you add lightbox to it? 22:08 < juank_prada> well im not sure.. bit i find that such a big image is just way to much for an informative site 22:09 < CB6> SEO ... content is king 22:09 < ricky> For a single image, I think lightbox is probably - we can probably make it smaller and link it to a larger screenshot, though 22:09 < juank_prada> sounds better 22:09 < CB6> wonder if we could add lightbox into wiki.. lol would be nice 22:10 < CB6> would sure clean the site up 22:10 < ricky> juank_prada: Feel free to test those changes in fedora-web.test and we can get those pushed 22:10 < ricky> Any other thoughts on this (particularly about the content/wording) 22:11 < juank_prada> ok as soon as i have the time i'll do it :) 22:11 < ricky> Cool, thanks 22:11 < ricky> a0 22:11 < ricky> Oops 22:11 < ricky> All right, then 22:12 < ricky> tw2113 isn't around to talk about docs.fp.o - last I heard, it just needed some polishing up 22:12 < ricky> (Anybody is free to help him out with this, by the way) 22:12 -!- giarc [n=cwt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-websites 22:13 < ricky> giarc: Hey :-) 22:13 < ricky> ianweller_food's at food, so we'll skip the MW one 22:14 < giarc> ricky, hi 22:14 < ricky> On the infrastructure side of things - I'll be freezing the website to what's in git right now shortly, so if there are any pressing changes, make them today 22:15 -!- ianweller_food is now known as ianweller 22:15 < ricky> Also, we now have a fedora-web.test repo, which http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/ gets built from every 10 minutes 22:15 < ricky> It's open to anybody in the web group, so feel free to mess around and try stuff out on that one 22:15 < ricky> Nothing on spins.fp.o recently 22:15 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Websites - get-fedora 22:16 < ianweller> oh dear. 22:16 < ricky> Heh. 22:16 < ricky> So we had this huge discussion about get-fedora before the meeting :-) 22:16 < ianweller> i'm so confused :P 22:17 < CB6> about what? 22:17 < ricky> It's looking like we'll be building on http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/webdesign/get-fedora/ for the main get-fedora page, and keep something similar to what we have now for the "experienced users" page 22:17 < ianweller> about the get-fedora conversation we had earlier 22:17 * juank_prada is unhappy with current aproach but is willing to help on that 22:17 < ricky> What aren't you clear about? :-) 22:17 < ianweller> but i'll let ricky summarize it for meeting purposes ;) 22:18 < CB6> I agree with the whole confusion part.. when I first started with computers it was insane with all the different protocols, and then not really knowing which OS to select. There should be an option to explain things on the side IF people want it 22:18 < ricky> I think that's something that's covered in the install guide 22:18 < ricky> (in-depth explanation of every single option) 22:18 < ricky> So for those that don't mind documentation, the info is there 22:19 < ianweller> i think if we cover ppc and kde in the sidebar i really like mizmo-out's design 22:19 < ricky> (http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f9/en_US/ch-new-users.html#sn-howto-download) 22:19 < CB6> http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora should be an OR button between the two protocols otherwise it will confuse 22:19 < ianweller> we really need to fix our torrents page. more organization. but that's another topic 22:19 < ianweller> if we're going to direct people to torrents.fp.o for main torrents 22:19 < ricky> Yeah, definitely 22:20 < ianweller> i guess maybe i could help with that. 22:20 < ianweller> i feel like i've been slacking on the websites front 22:20 < CB6> no need to waste peoples time and resources when a simple "or" would solve it lol 22:20 < ricky> The point is to make it as easy as possible, even if it means showing the most common option on the main get-fedora page 22:21 < ricky> All of the options are still completely exposed to users that know what they want 22:21 < giarc> are we use this: 22:21 < giarc> http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora 22:21 < CB6> Options is what linux is all about :) 22:21 < juank_prada> i dont see an OR as confusing thing... you either get A or B 22:21 < giarc> for those users ? 22:21 < ianweller> ricky: i need to talk with you sometime about working on torrents.fp.o. hopefully i can remember tomorrow 22:22 < ricky> ianweller: Sure thing, I can show you where all of the scripts, for making that are - just ping me whenever you're interested 22:22 < CB6> Select A or B is pretty straight forward everyone has a multiple choice test LOL.. 22:22 < ricky> juank_prada: It can be confusing if the person doesn't know what each means 22:23 < ricky> Multiple-choice tests can be failed, single-choice tests can't :-) 22:23 * ricky wins the bad analogy contest :-P 22:23 < ianweller> CB6: a simple "install or upgrade" is much easier than a "live cd or dvd AND architechture AND delivery method" 22:23 < giarc> ricky, are we planning on using this get-fedora at publictest15 for the 'users who know what they are looking around for' ? 22:23 < juank_prada> single choices restrict your freedom ^^ 22:23 < CB6> ianweller totally... 22:23 < ianweller> juank_prada: and that's why we have sidebars! 22:23 < ricky> giarc: For users that know what they want, we'll probably use http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora, since they probably already know exactly what they want 22:23 < ianweller> i think we're moving into pre-meeting discussion+rant+thing btw 22:24 < giarc> ok 22:24 < ricky> (So 1 click for those people vs. going through a wizard) 22:24 < CB6> yep 22:24 < ricky> Nobody's freedom is being restricted - all choices are still available 22:24 < ricky> We're just showing the most common useful one the most prominently 22:24 < CB6> can always click back lol 22:25 < ianweller> i'm +1 for mizmo's design, as long as we have a summary over ppc and kde in the sidebar. 22:25 < ricky> That's why we need to make sure that the sidebar handles the special cases well 22:25 < ianweller> and if we include the multiple-cd set alongside the upgrade DVD 22:25 < giarc> i like the page at publictest15, but think we are doing the right thing by using mizmo-out 's design 22:25 < CB6> would be cool if respin etc was all there 22:25 < ianweller> CB6: 'see all spins' 22:25 < ricky> It's already linked from there :-) 22:26 < ianweller> which spins.fp.o is another project. ;P 22:26 < CB6> http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora I quite like how this is laid out 22:26 < ricky> Everything is downloadable within two clicks from get-fedora, with the vaaast majority of people getting it in one click 22:27 < ricky> CB6: I love how that was designed as well, but it still ends up presenting a large number of users with options that they don't need 22:27 < ianweller> the pt15 one looks VERY sleek and professional, but i think mizmo-out's wins by content/usability 22:27 < juank_prada> from my point of view we are divergin the user to lots of different pages just to get different (yet similar) things while they could get most of them in one single page... im not a usabillity expert but i rather have to click three times on a page than waiting for the server to show up another page 22:27 < giarc> ianweller, right 22:27 < ricky> juank_prada: The vaaast majority of people will just get it in one click, though 22:28 < ricky> I think it's perfectly fine to make people that already know what they want make that extra click to get to the "experienced user" page 22:28 < CB6> Do we have test servers pinging to see what servers have what content up etc? 22:28 < ianweller> i think anyone who clicks the experienced user page also knows how to work their way around the mirrors ;) 22:28 < ianweller> but that's another hasty generalization that can cause people to start yelling at me 22:28 < ricky> CB6: Yeah, there's a mirror crawler, which is how download.fp.o knows where to redirect people 22:29 < CB6> cool 22:29 < ricky> (mdomsch is the mastermind behind all of the mirrors stuff, if you're interested in how that works) 22:29 < ricky> OK, so let's try to distill this into what we need to get done 22:29 < ianweller> mdomsch is a magician :D 22:30 < ianweller> 1) write sidebar content 22:30 -!- tw2113 [n=tw2113@fedora/tw2113] has joined #fedora-websites 22:30 < juank_prada> ok im not saying anything else about get-fedora, just lets start coding mizmo-out' mockup 22:30 < ricky> The main two things are: Sidebar links (make sure that they catch inexperienced users that need something other than i686 Desktop Live CD) 22:30 < ricky> and having links to the upgrade guide/"How do I use this file?" 22:30 < juank_prada> i think the site will look way to overwhelmed by links... specially the sidebar 22:31 < ianweller> maybe a sidebar with the heading "What?" would work :P 22:31 < ricky> Hehe 22:31 < CB6> As far as I'm concerned as long as people can get the right content as fast as they want then great. I just want to insure all the options are readily available to everyone. 22:31 < ianweller> CB6: they will be, don't you worry :D 22:31 < ricky> CB6: They are - it'll be on a page just like http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora 22:31 < ianweller> are we gonna move the current get-fedora to get-more-fedora 22:31 < ianweller> or something liek that 22:32 < CB6> As long as we don't bombard people with garbage like Microsoft.. there's really no flow to their sites 22:32 < ricky> ianweller: Probably - haven't thought about the name yet :-) 22:32 < ricky> quaid: Are you around for a quick docs question? 22:33 < giarc> what date do we need to be done by? for translations? 22:33 < ricky> I told the l10n team that we'd try to give them 3 weeks before release (which is hopefully more than they need) 22:34 < ricky> That gives us around 2 weeks to have the strings for the English version finished 22:34 < giarc> so 2008-11-03 ? 22:34 < ricky> Yup 22:35 < giarc> do we know what we are putting in the sidebar? 22:36 < ricky> All right, so I'll ask some docs people for the docs links under resoures 22:36 < ricky> giarc: Sounds like a good thing to get out there 22:36 < ricky> So there are a few options.. They could have an arch that's not i686, or they might want the KDE spin, for example 22:37 < CB6> Why is there no search function on fedoraproject? Is it just too much of a resource hog? 22:37 < ricky> CB6: daMaestro has done some work on a search - you might be able to talk to him about that 22:37 < juank_prada> CB6, most of fp.o is static content and a search engine would probably need some databes content to index the info 22:38 < giarc> which are the most popular spins? 22:38 < giarc> KDE 22:38 < CB6> title of the page is one of the most important components of SEO 22:38 < ricky> Well, KDE and Desktop are only ones that go on get-fedora (vs. stuff on spins.fp.o, I think) 22:38 < giarc> ok 22:39 < ricky> CB6: Heh, they're all the same now, but we have the ability to change them per-page if you have suggestions 22:39 < giarc> so, KDE spin, PPC and 64 bit in the sidebar? 22:39 < CB6> ricky lol that's not good at all 22:39 < ricky> The thing is the KDE spin has i686 and x86_64 versions too :-/ 22:40 < giarc> we could just link to the i686, same as we do for the liveCD 22:40 < ricky> CB6: We're already the first google result for "Fedora" :-) (but it'd still be great if you wanted to change some titles) 22:40 < giarc> with a more... 22:41 < ricky> giarc: Ah, good point - i686 will work for x86_64 anyway 22:41 < giarc> right, same logic 22:41 < giarc> diff spin 22:41 < CB6> ricky agreed it would be beneficial to hold the Fedora name aspect for the primary part of the title then add - page subject title after 22:41 < ricky> What I want to avoid is users wondering if "X Y Z" combination is available or not, then searching like crazy 22:41 < giarc> ok, so, seems like we know what we are starting with in the sidebar anyway... 22:42 < ricky> But hopefully, those users can look through the full table of what we offer 22:42 < CB6> hopefully people take the time to also have it on the page so X Y Z is also available as google looks for key words there 22:44 < giarc> ricky, i think our 'let me look around...' is sufficient for people looking for specific things if they are not readily apparent 22:44 < ricky> Hmm. Do you think we can get away with leaving out x86_64 on the sidebar? 22:44 < giarc> to not worry too much about what is NOT in the sidebar 22:44 < ricky> It's not really all that important unless you have >4 GB of memory... 22:44 < giarc> i would think PPC more than 64bit 22:44 < ricky> Then we can worry about KDE and ppc 22:45 < ricky> And we'd have a version of http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/webdesign/get-fedora/ with just KDE links or just PPC links 22:45 < giarc> interesting idea 22:45 < ricky> Any other suggestions for handling those sidebar links? 22:45 < CB6> a lot of people these days have 4gb of memory 22:46 < giarc> yeah, and x86_64 22:46 * ricky wonders if the i686 installer could automatically detect that and use the PAE kernel 22:47 < giarc> so it seems to me we have enough of an idea to get started? is that opinion shared? 22:47 < ricky> I still find that the majority of people that insist on using x86_64 don't have >= 4 GB of memory. That's just my experience from listening in #fedora, though :-) 22:47 < giarc> ricky, heh 22:48 < ricky> OK, so I'll get Mairin's version of get-fedora into the test repo and we can all start playing around with it 22:48 -!- J5 [n=quintice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) 22:48 < ricky> (Also, please feel free to ask in #fedora-websites if you run into git trouble or anything like that - it can be really confusing) 22:49 < ricky> So to work on the test site, you should git clone ssh://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-web.test.git if you're in the web group, or git:// otherwise 22:49 < juank_prada> then are we making one page for each spin and each arch? 22:49 < juank_prada> arent we failing here with the DRY principles? 22:49 -!- juank_prada [n=juank@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit Remote closed the connection 22:50 -!- juank_prada [n=juank@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-websites 22:50 < ricky> juank_prada: We'll probably just have a page for i686, ppc, and live KDE. 22:51 < juank_prada> ricky, you mean one for all of them? 22:51 < ricky> For other options, I think it's reasonable to expect users to look at the full table of downloads. Those three are enough to get anybody started with using Fedora 22:51 < ricky> One for each (so it'd still be at most two clicks from get-fedora 22:51 < juank_prada> i still think we are providing same options in different ways which may confuse users more 22:51 < giarc> i think we can do it with one, no? 22:52 < ricky> The nice part is that 99% of users won't need to make any choices. They'll be at correct place at the first page 22:52 < giarc> let people looking for other things use what we have now? 22:52 < ricky> What we have now is having them all on one page 22:52 < giarc> right, i meant the part 'let me look around' 22:53 < giarc> :-} 22:53 < ricky> Oh, that part will be the same as what we have now 22:53 < ricky> The "sea of links," as mizmo-out put it 22:53 < juank_prada> murphy said that everything that could be wrong will be wrong, so if we provide the link to a sea of links some how a noob user will get in there getting lost again 22:53 < giarc> ok, and i think we can have mizmo-out 's design, add KDE/PPC/64bit to the sidebar and be done? 22:54 < ianweller> juank_prada: that's their problem then, if they see past the "duh" 22:54 < ricky> juank_prada: They'd have to click the "I know exactly what I'm looking for" link first 22:54 < ricky> Then they'd realize the mistake and go back if they don't know what to choose 22:54 < juank_prada> yeah.. im looking for fedora! 22:54 < juank_prada> so ill click there 22:55 < ricky> Worst case, there's always /get-help :-) 22:55 < ricky> OK, so anything else on get-fedora? 22:55 < giarc> not here 22:56 < ricky> I think we have a pretty good idea of what needs to happen in the next two weeks now 22:56 < ianweller> (please no) 22:56 < ricky> ianweller: Hehe 22:56 < juank_prada> i'll just please ianweller 22:56 < giarc> so, ricky, you are getting mizmo-out 's design into git test repo, we all work on it ? 22:57 < ricky> Yup 22:57 < ricky> There's always the mailing list for more discussion 22:57 < giarc> got it :-} 22:57 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Webites - Open Floor 22:57 * ianweller looks at his non-existant watch 22:57 < ricky> Anything more about websites in general? We're almost at the hour mark 22:57 * giarc facepalms at the thought of more discussion 22:57 < ricky> Hehe 22:57 < ricky> That's what meetings are for :-) 22:58 < giarc> for 6 months! 22:58 < giarc> ? 22:58 < giarc> anyway 22:58 < ricky> Let's close it up, then 22:58 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Webites - Meeting End
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