Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:57:06 +0100
From: Timothy Murphy <gayleard@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <g5ja05$lko$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Gordon Messmer wrote:
> Stallman's concern is for our Freedom to use the computers
> that we purchase for our own ends and needs, rather than as dictated to
> us by someone else. Linus has repeatedly shown that he doesn't care
> about that Freedom, and RMS would be a fool to step aside and let Linus
> act as a steward for it.
If you think Linux, or Linus, is unethical
why do you run Linux? Or even GNU/Linux?
There are lots of other OS's.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:23:00 -0700
From: Gordon Messmer <yinyang@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <487D3154.2090007@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Timothy Murphy wrote:
> Gordon Messmer wrote:
>
>> Stallman's concern is for our Freedom to use the computers that we
>> purchase for our own ends and ...
...snip...
>
> If you think Linux, or Linus, is unethical why do you run Linux? Or
> even GNU/Linux? There are lots of other OS's.
Mostly because Linus isn't capable of screwing up the Freedom that's
guarded by the GPL.
That said, the problem with Linus isn't usually his antipathy for
Freedom, just his apathy. He'd make an awful steward for Free Software,
even if he's capable enough as a lead for the Linux kernel.
Just because I don't think he's fit for one specific job, don't infer
that I think he's unfit for every job.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:25:25 -0700
From: Gordon Messmer <yinyang@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <487D31E5.3000800@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Les Mikesell wrote:
> But it is equally ridiculous either way, when 80+% is neither GNU nor
> Linux code. Calling it an xwindow system would make more sense. Or
> perhaps a firefox/thunderbird/openoffice.org system - with most of the
> other parts interchangeable.
If you're talking about a distribution, then I suppose it's fine. When
you refer to the *operating system*, though, that's a different story.
GNU/Linux is an operating system. It implements a defined operating
system interface. Linux, by itself, is not an operating system.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:28:26 -0700
From: Gordon Messmer <yinyang@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <487D329A.50403@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Les Mikesell wrote:
> I didn't mean the word GNU. Reflexive acronyms are easy but useless.
> What was the working system before Linux?
It was GNU. GNU, as a system, pre-dates Linux.
GNU was not built on top of Linux. Linux was eventually able to run GNU.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 23:41:55 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <loom.20080715T232430-317@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Les Mikesell <lesmikesell <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Why not name it something that gives the appropriate credit to the 83.5%
> that has nothing to do with GNU
Then let's call it KDE/GNU/Linux. :-)
Did you know:
* excluding game data (nexuiz-data, vegastrike-data, openarena,
alienarena-data), the largest Fedora package is a KDE package
(kdelibs-apidocs)?
* out of the 40 largest packages (and that includes game data), 5 are KDE or
related packages (kdelibs-apidocs, qt-doc, digikam-doc, kdebase-workspace,
kdeedu)?
* excluding game data (nexuiz-data, vegastrike-data, openarena), the largest
Fedora SRPM is a KDE package (kde-i18n)?
* out of the 50 largest SRPMs (and that includes game data), 9 are KDE or
related packages (kde-i18n, kde-l10n, qt, koffice, koffice-langpack,
digikam-doc, kdeedu, kdebase-runtime, kdebase-workspace)?
Kevin Kofler
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:01:11 +0200
From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200807160201.11997.listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
tisdagen den 15 juli 2008 skrev Tim:
> On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 02:48 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> > What exactly is it that you don't want to call "GNU/Linux"? What ...
...snip...
> > Is Bash part of what you call Linux?...
>
> They're all part of what's released as an OS called something-or-other
> Linux.
Show me something that has been released as an OS called something-or-other
Linux and contains Kylix.
> Just the
> same as a lot of software is called Windows software, despite never
> being written by Microsoft. Over time, software *for* Linux, or
> software *for* Windows just gets called Linux software or Windows
> software.
Can you support your implied claim that "Windows software" means "part of
Windows"? I read it as "software for Windows".
Björn Persson
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:01:59 +0200
From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200807160201.59614.listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Joe Klemmer wrote:
> On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 02:48 +0200, Björn Persson wrote:
> > Is Udev part of what you call Linux?
>
> Yes.
...snip...
> While it's a fact that the kernel is
the only part of any distro that's
> actually named Linux, The name has become attached to the entire OS.
Based on your answers I draw the conclusion that you use "Linux" as a
collective name for all software that can run in a Unix-like environment,
regardless of who wrote it or whether it's free or not. You probably think of
Fedora, Gentoo, Ubuntu et cetera as different subsets of Linux, as none of
them contains Kylix for example. You also don't seem to make any distinction
between operating systems and applications, but consider all software part of
the operating system.
I seriously doubt that's what Linus Torvalds
means when he says "Linux", and I
can assure you that Richard Stallman does not consider Kylix a part of
GNU/Linux.
Björn Persson
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:02:48 -0500
From: Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <487D3AA8.3080603@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Gordon Messmer wrote:
> Les Mikesell wrote:
>>
>> I didn't mean the word GNU. Reflexive acronyms are easy but useless.
>> What was the working system before Linux?
>
> It was GNU. GNU, as a system, pre-dates Linux.
As a system of what?
> GNU was not built on top of Linux. Linux was eventually able to run GNU.
GNU what? Emacs? I was more interested in running apache and sendmail
at the time and didn't care if it was bsd, linux, or unix underneath.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:02:33 +0200
From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200807160202.33291.listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Gordon Messmer wrote:
> Joe Klemmer wrote:
> > BTW, has the FSF been as vocal about
GNU/FreeBSD? Not picking on *BSD,
> > just curious.
>
> They probably don't need to be, as GNU/FreeBSD is clear about its
> implementation. It's a FreeBSD kernel in combination with the GNU
> operating system.
And so the official name is Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, to reflect that it doesn't
contain all of FreeBSD, only the kernel.
Björn Persson
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:45:08 +0930
From: Tim <ignored_mailbox@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: compile graphical ssh - GFTP
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <1216167308.17580.1.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 20:33 +0200, wwp wrote:
> Well, a simple way to crash it: try to connect to a server that will
> timeout.
Doesn't crash here, I have to reconnect, but that's all. It doesn't
seem to recognise that it's disconnected, so when I notice it's dead, I
have to disconnect then connect. I seem to recall, with a prior
version, that if the server timed out, and I subsequently told it to
send a file, it'd connect then send, automatically.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:25:30 +0200
From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200807160225.30191.listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Les Mikesell wrote:
> "In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the â??mainâ??
> repository of the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution ...
...snip...
>... it â??Linuxâ??
>
> Why not name it something that gives the appropriate credit to the 83.5%
> that has nothing to do with GNU
Since it's a bit impractical to name a
distribution by concatenating the names
of all the packages it contains, I suggest that the team that maintains a
distribution should come up with a name for the distribution. That way none
of the upstream projects would be credited any more or less than any others.
In this case the distribution could be named "gNewSense" for example. A
certain other distribution could be named "Fedora". Doesn't that sound like a
good idea?
Björn Persson
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:59:20 +0930
From: Tim <ignored_mailbox@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: KDE4 groupupdate fails on F9 packagekit
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <1216168160.17580.5.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 21:07 +0530, abhishek rane wrote:
> I have a slow connection so its not possible to update everything for
> me. The updates are about 1.1 GB
If you make sure that yum is caching the files, rather than deleting
them, you should be able to start updating, and carry on updating any
time you reconnect.
In /etc/yum.conf ensure "keepcache=1".
I gather that yum should keep caching files *until* installing them is
finished, even without that option being set, but it hasn't been my
experience.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:30:25 -0300
From: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: Joe Klemmer <klemmerj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <orod4y1xi6.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Jul 15, 2008, Joe Klemmer <klemmerj@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> BTW, has the FSF been as vocal about GNU/FreeBSD?
Of course not. FreeBSD is a complete operating system on its own, it
was never just a kernel combined with the GNU Operating System.
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:34:47 +0200
From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200807160234.47524.listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
onsdagen den 16 juli 2008 skrev Gordon Messmer:
> Les Mikesell wrote:
> > But it is equally ridiculous either way, when 80+% is neither GNU nor
...snip...
> GNU/Linux is an operating system. It implements a defined operating
> system interface. Linux, by itself, is not an operating system.
I'd like to hear your definition of "operating system". Linus Torvalds calls
Linux an operating system. He appears to use Andrew Tanenbaum's definition,
where "operating system" is pretty much synonymous to "kernel". Other people
have other opinions on what an operating system is.
Björn Persson
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:36:14 -0300
From: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: that old GNU/Linux argument
To: Gordon Messmer <yinyang@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <ork5fm1x8h.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Jul 15, 2008, Gordon Messmer <yinyang@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Linus referred to GNU in the first usenet post that he wrote to
> comp.os.minix announcing his intention to write what would become
> Linux.
And then in the 0.01 announcement, still under a non-Free Software
announcement
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01
Select quotes (*emphasis* mine)
<quote>
Notes for *linux* release 0.01
*linux*-0.01.tar.Z - sources to the *kernel*
This is a free minix-like *kernel* [...]
Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you
need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and may
be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools used
with *linux* are *GNU* software and are under the GNU copyleft. These tools
aren't in the distribution - ask me (or GNU) for more info.
[...] Happy hacking.
</quote>
'nuff said?
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:07:23 +0930
From: Tim <ignored_mailbox@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: RhythmBox wants text/html decoder plugin ??
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <1216168643.17580.9.camel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 16:14 -0400, William Case wrote:
> Error messages:
>
> "A text/html decoder plugin is required to play this stream, but not
> installed."
>
> I can find no such plugin. Trying to get
> http://www.cbc.ca/listen/streams/r1_ottawa_32.html
> working.
Here, I get Totem saying it wants a WMA 8 plugin. I wonder if you got a
HTTP error page during the attempt, and it's goofily trying to display
that?
I can't remember how to stop Totem taking over browser media embedding
to try another system (beyond the obvious, of yum removing all of
totem).
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:41:37 +0200
From: Bj?rn Persson <listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Why is Fedora not a Free GNU/Linux distributions?
To: For users of Fedora <fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <200807160241.37988.listor3.rombobeorn@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Gordon Messmer wrote:
> GNU/Linux is an operating system. It implements the interfaces
> described by POSIX. Applications written to conform to that ...
...snip...
>... It implements no documented standard (and maintains
> a policy against stable interfaces). Applications do not run on Linux.
Does Linux not implement the system calls described by POSIX?
Björn Persson
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:48:46 +0200
From: wwp <subscript@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: compile graphical ssh - GFTP
To: fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <20080716024846.63d83d08@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello Aldo,
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:31:21 -0700 "Aldo Foot" <lunixer@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 2008/7/15 wwp <subscript@xxxxxxx>:
> > Hello Aldo,
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:51:57 -0700 "Aldo Foot" <lunixer@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
...snip...
> Filezilla is great -untar the thing and it's ready to go.
> I'll be using this one instead of GFTP.
It's also available as a rpm, I installed it using yum on my F8.
Regards,
