Re: Request Regarding the "Remove SELinux" Thread

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On 9/26/07, Ric Moore <wayward4now@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 18:06 -0400, David Boles wrote:
> > on 9/24/2007 5:28 PM, Mike McCarty wrote:
> > > David Boles wrote:
> > >> on 9/21/2007 5:56 PM, Mike McCarty wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I'm sorry list but I just can't resist this.  ;-)
> > >>
> > >> This is something my parents said to me when I was a know-it-all teen.
> > >>
> > >> We will miss you when you leave (my name was here) Mike. Write when you
> > >> find work.  ;-)
> > >
> > > I don't expect that any here will miss me.
> > > Also, I don't particularly care.
>
> I bet you actually would. <grins> I'd miss you for being so cantankerous
> and as a Devil's Advocate! <chuckles>
>
> > Actually I was just trying to *****-slap you awake.
>
> That's kinda "aggressive", don't you think? Does anyone -have- to live
> up to our expectations? Myself, ...I think not.
>
> > There have been some
> > really experienced, knowledgeable, and important Linux people trying to
> > politely explain SELinux to you, both how and why, for several days.
> >
> > And there you stand with your fingers in your ears and loudly saying
> > *la-la-la* I'm not listening!!
>
> ... it might be better to preface that statement with "From my
> perception..." as that is what it is and not necessarily the case from
> his point of view.
>
> > From what I have read you have the choice of using Fedora and disabling
> > SELinux. Or not using Fedora. Period. And I do not see Fedora making you a
> > special 'Mike' DVD to install without SELinux.
>
> That has never been his point. I agree that it would be better for me,
> as a user with little to no actual use for SELinux, to be able to remove
> it.

Okay. Let's just say the answer to that is no.

> Beagle comes to mind. And it does seem to waste a tick or two, even
> completely turned off, from what I'm reading. I'm a speed freak, and
> there are times when my system feels no faster than my old 486 DX/2 66
> with 32 megs of memory did, running Caldera. These are my perceptions
> and opinions. Remember, the "Geek Manifesto" is the pursuit of the
> "Right Thing"... and that usually means a spirited intellectual debate.

Beagle was a waste of time AND it was easily removable.

> Plenty of Hell was raised about Beagle to the point it seems to have
> been ditched. It just didn't happen to be the "Right Thing". Most of the
> people discussing SELinux were the very same ones who discussed the cons
> of Beagle. So, it could happen that SELinux could be "Not Installed" as
> an option at install time, if a modified kernel was available to be
> installed, at that point.

If Fedora ditches SELinux and this trickles down to CentOS/RHEL, I
would stop using them.

> And, if the apps could run with or without it,
> if that was a part of the modifications that are being made anyway. I'm
> not a coder, but it would seem that if an app can be modified to rely on
> SELinux, at the same time another hook could be included to run without
> it existing on the system at all.

Apps can run without SELinux, you should have understood that by now.

> It merely becomes a decision to do so.
> I think that omission is core to the debate... that Fedora cannot run
> without it and/or months of hand editing a pile of source-code to make
> it so.

Where are you getting this information? I have never seen what you're
saying here to be true.

> We do have two camps of users here:
>
> 1.) Those that hail back to the Bob Young days, who have a historical
> and personal stake in RedHat and it's success. In those days, the
> individual users opinions counted and everyone was evangelical over
> spreading the news about a potential "Windows Killer". The price was
> relatively cheap for the box set to Joe <aka Lunch> Bucket. Many became
> serious admins later on. Then SOMEBODY kicked users to the curb. IMHO,
> that was not a good decision to make.

Listen, if you're stil bitching about that, you need to get help. I
was using Redhat before that happened, just like many others.

> 2.) Folks that are happy and excited to be in the fold of the new
> paradigm of "Fedora" and be part of the test-bed to benefit RH
> commercial users through endless beta-testing ...which is what it is
> from my viewpoint and from reading the manifesto explaining the base
> goals of the "Fedora Project".

Okay sir.

> Older farts like me would like to see it nudged back towards the old
> experience of a more-stable user version of RH, as that is where we
> "grew-up". So, this "movement" to removing something as pervasive as
> SELinux is how it was back when users could help define the very nature
> of the distro and that was respected. Bob Young was all about the
> end-user. I've met him on many occasions, especially after he hired me
> in 1999.

So why don't you use CentOS instead of Fedora?

> > It's been real. And it's been fun. But it ain't been real fun.
>
> But, it has been interesting, no?

No. Purely depressing at this point.

[ snip ]

> I really miss the old RH days. I think others do too, and that might be
> some old baggage that could be discarded after considerations, and just
> move on. One way or the the other. It's a difficult decision to make
> though. If I pound on Rahul, it's only because I miss the old days. So,
> I apologize for that. Ric

Ok


-- 
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

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