On Wed, 2007-01-03 at 07:36 +1030, Tim wrote: > Tim wrote: > >> I'd go along with that. I am a native English speaker, and I've found > >> word processing grammar checking tools leave a lot to be desired. Some > >> of the results, I've seen, give you the impression that a 12 year old > >> wrote the document. They might find some glaring errors, but more > >> subtle ones go un-noticed. > > Mike McCarty: > > I think you have unreasonable expectations. > > I don't agree. I don't really expect them to be able to do any better > than they do. Human language is a rather complex thing, with some quite > large regional variations. But computer programmers like to try and > reduce things down to the lowest common denominator. The two are > opposite goals. > > -- > (Currently testing FC5, but still running FC4, if that's important.) > > Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. > I read messages from the public lists. > I have some experience in translating complex data, which is somewhat related to the issue of grammar checking. What occurs is event sequence and context related, along with the baggage that we humans carry, called memories. Thus two people conversing often have differing ideas about the topic, based upon their own experience and memories, which is then modified by the event sequence that lead to the statement/paragraph/topic under discussion. This in turn is further refined by the event sequence of the particular conversation and topic, queried and rectified by questions and answers or statements by the party(ies) involved. This also occurs in complex programs, where the programmer has prior experience (or art as some like to call it), along with personal coding styles, experience in fixing problems (or working around them) which is particular to the view of the program and the familiarity the programmer has with the hardware, software libraries and tools at his disposal. Thus if five different programmers are asked to create a table ot data encoded by color and location, you would get 5 different programs to accomplish that task. They could all be equivalent in input and output, but the internalization of the data, the procedures followed and the methods used to achieve that result would be different. Also the appearance of the initial result from each programmer would likely be different as well, in things like table representation, dividers, lines or no lines, labels or no lables etc. etc. Further it is unlikely that any of the outputs would match your exact expectations on the first pass. Thus even though the topic was understood, the concepts clear and the desired output known, the output was somewhat non-deterministic. This is true of Grammar as well. If, for instance one were to make a speach about Gettysburg in modern language, one might say: Eighty seven years ago, people established America to grant liberty and justice to everyone equally. Does that say the same thing as: Hey man, my great grandpa started this country so I could say this stuff. Or: Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Abrahm Lincoln. Perhpas each has the same feeling to the speaker, and even is correct for the audience, yet the choice of words would be very hard to justify in a programming context without a lot of background information that simply is not part of the words being spoken. The historical context, the nature of the speaker, the nature and background of the audience, and the requirements of settling an issue divisive to the nation. A great task for a man, but one that cannot come (yet) within the capability of a computer. Grammar checkers can do some interesting things, and they can improve clarity, but they do not make one accomplished in language. However, their value for a non-native speaker is considerable. I have an ex-wife who is Korean. It would have been wonderful to have had some better tools to help us in our relationship. Expectations are simple. getting something to meet those expectations is much like correcting grammar, however, Tim, you can certainly add your skill and knowledge to those attempting this very difficult and challenging task. Dr. Kurzweil and others have been working on this for decades. Check out the history of Dragon systems. Regards, Les H
