15:00 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Who's here? 15:00 < jima> not me! 15:00 < warren> m 15:00 -!- notting [n=notting@redhat/notting] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:01 < mmcgrath> abadger1999: dgilmore f13 gregdek jcollie ivazquez iWolf J5 lmacken mbonnet paulobanon_ paulobanon ricky skvidal spoleeba yingbull PING 15:01 < skvidal> hi 15:01 * dgilmore is here 15:01 < yingbull> pong 15:01 * abadger1999 is here 15:01 < spoleeba> mmcgrath, oh no 15:01 * lmacken is here 15:01 < skvidal> wow 15:01 < jcollie> mmcgrath: i'll brb in the middle of some trouble... 15:01 < skvidal> no one does the /me blank thing 15:01 < mmcgrath> jcollie: no problem. 15:01 -!- mbacovsk [n=mbacovsk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:01 < spoleeba> mmcgrath, im on a con call 15:01 * mmcgrath 15:01 * dgilmore 15:01 < mmcgrath> spoleeba: no worries. 15:01 < skvidal> ah, much better 15:01 * asgeirf *newbie* is here... 15:02 < mmcgrath> asgeirf: welcome! 15:02 < lmacken> skvidal: sorry, I forgot to flush the dircproxy users this week :( 15:02 < jima> ah, fresh meat! 15:02 -!- nim-nim [n=nim-nim@fedora/nim-nim] has quit Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) 15:02 < skvidal> lmacken: :) 15:02 < spoleeba> mmcgrath, trying to convince esmf developers to target fedora 15:02 < mmcgrath> Ok, well lets get started. We may have to put some things off until later as some people are busy right now, but thats not a problem. 15:03 < skvidal> spoleeba: just keep the icbm developers from targeting fedora 15:03 < jima> skvidal: i concur. 15:03 < mmcgrath> So lots has happened since our last meeting, because we missed some in there. 15:03 < mmcgrath> .tiny https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&group=milestone&keywords=%7EMeeting&order=priority 15:03 < zodbot> mmcgrath: http://tinyurl.com/2hyyz6 15:03 < J5> pong 15:03 < f13> mmcgrath: howdy 15:03 < mmcgrath> so first ticket up is something notting asked about just today 15:03 < mmcgrath> .ticket 347 15:03 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #347 (Set localtime on all our servers to UTC) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/347 15:03 < mmcgrath> J5: word 15:03 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: did i says id do it? 15:04 < mmcgrath> So when we do finally do this, we'll have cron jobs and all kinds of things to change. 15:04 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: yes you did. 15:04 < dgilmore> we need to look at cron job scheduling 15:04 < mmcgrath> I don't think anyone's against it, but we'll have to make sure we have our plan and do it. Its going to take time to actually do it. 15:04 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: week of 25th ill be in boston. so i think ill do it one night that week 15:05 < dgilmore> so lets work up a plan. and get word out there 15:05 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: solid, that works for me. Go ahead and assign that ticket to you. 15:05 < mmcgrath> We *can* do this in steps if we want. I'll leave that up to you (if you were volunteering for it that is) 15:05 < skvidal> mmcgrath: why do we have to change cron jobs? just to make sure they don't run at peak hours? 15:05 < mmcgrath> skvidal: yeah 15:05 < jima> oh, goody 15:05 < mmcgrath> especially with rawhide builds and stuff. 15:05 < skvidal> I mean have about 14 timezones where people are using fedora readily 15:06 < jima> my cron jobs run whenever 15:06 < skvidal> is there EVER a non-peak hour? 15:06 < f13> yes 15:06 < mmcgrath> For some machines yeah. Not all of them though. 15:06 < jima> skvidal: non-peak US/EU is ideal, i think. 15:06 < f13> koji isn't nearly as busy between 1am -> 4am Eastern 15:06 < mmcgrath> I think many of our important cron jobs are running on the hour anyway, but the buildsystem does have lulls 15:06 < f13> of course, doing rawhide during then makes koji a little busy (: 15:06 < jima> i do believe most of our contributors are in US/EU 15:06 < skvidal> jima: india is growing 15:07 < mmcgrath> skvidal: but the fact taht we're increasingly not having downtime is good :) though it will cause us challenges in the future. 15:07 < mmcgrath> like when to back up what, etc. 15:07 < skvidal> right 15:07 < skvidal> all I'm wondering is maybe we leave the cron jobs alone 15:07 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: were you volunteering for that or did I misread you? 15:07 < skvidal> and see how things are 15:07 < skvidal> but change the system time 15:08 * iWolf slinks into the back 15:08 * mmcgrath thinks dgilmore might have been called away for a bit, we can get back to that if need be. 15:08 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: ill look at how it effects things 15:08 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: excellent, thanks. 15:08 * dgilmore was taking the ticket 15:09 < dgilmore> is slow due to no mouse 15:09 < mmcgrath> next ticket is 365 but jcollie is busy right now. 15:09 < mmcgrath> .ticket 270 15:09 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #270 (Fedora Wiki allows editing raw HTML) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/270 15:09 < mmcgrath> paulobanon_: paulobanon: ricky: ping? 15:09 * mmcgrath hasn't seen them today much, might be busy. 15:09 < f13> skvidal: we'll have to change the rawhide compose cron 15:09 * mmcgrath notes he's going to have a whole special wiki talk after the tickets so we don't have to get into it too much. 15:09 < mmcgrath> moving on 15:09 < mmcgrath> .ticket 302 15:09 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #302 (Moin patches) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/302 15:10 < f13> skvidal: we time that so that there is fresh rawhide content waiting for RH folks to start work, who primarily start in UTC -5 15:10 < mmcgrath> Last I've heard these are still not upstream, I'm going to un-meeting-ize this. 15:10 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: seems sane 15:10 < skvidal> f13: eastern standard tribe 15:10 < f13> yeah 15:10 < mmcgrath> netxt ticket 15:10 < mmcgrath> .395 15:10 < mmcgrath> also one for jcollie 15:10 < dgilmore> f13: we can work it 15:11 < mmcgrath> we actually did have that one working for a bit, expect it to be deployed with the rest of asterisk. 15:11 < mmcgrath> next topic! 15:11 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- The Wiki 15:11 < mmcgrath> so lets have a chat about this. 15:11 < abadger1999> Woo hoo! 15:11 < mmcgrath> I'd like to officially propose we move from Moin to Mediawiki. 15:11 < skvidal> wikis are for losers 15:11 < skvidal> let's go with a big dir on fedora people 15:11 < notting> deep hurting. 15:11 < skvidal> anyone can edit 15:11 < mmcgrath> I've been doing some script conversions and thanks to ivazquez and unicode magic... I've been very happy with the results. 15:11 < jima> notting: deep stabbing? 15:12 < jwb> mmcgrath, how different are the sytaxes? 15:12 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i want moin syntax 15:12 < mmcgrath> jwb: they're pretty different. 15:12 < jwb> uuff 15:12 < notting> mmcgrath: do we have someone lined up for prettyfication? 15:12 < dgilmore> jwb: i personally hate mediawiki's syntax 15:12 < jwb> does mediawiki have a gui mode that makes that moot? 15:12 < lmacken> any way we can get a rich text editor plugin or something ? 15:12 < mmcgrath> Here's what we have so far - https://publictest1.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure 15:12 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: we might just be able to find a plugin for that. 15:13 < dgilmore> when ive had to use it ive had to copy paste and run regexs in vi to get it to do what is simple in moin 15:13 -!- glezos [n=glezos@fedora/glezos] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:13 < mmcgrath> There's going to be bits and pieces to change but for the most part. Its been very good. 15:13 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: if you do ill be a happy man 15:13 * ivazquez apologizes for being late 15:13 < jwb> that looks like arse... 15:13 * glezos too 15:13 < mmcgrath> ivazquez: no worries 15:13 -!- mether [n=ask@fedora/mether] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host) 15:13 < dgilmore> lmacken: mediawiki does have soem wysiwyg editors 15:13 < mmcgrath> glezos: we're just talking about mediawiki - https://publictest1.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure 15:13 < jwb> mmcgrath, maybe some of that doesn't work well from external connections? 15:13 < mmcgrath> jwb: we'll have someone make a template for it. 15:13 < warren> mmcgrath, would mediawiki be any easier or harder to integrate with FAS? 15:14 < jwb> mmcgrath, no, i mean it looks broken 15:14 < mmcgrath> warren: easier. 15:14 < warren> cool 15:14 < mmcgrath> jwb: define broken? as in there's the #! html box at the top? 15:14 < notting> hey, i could read InfrastructurePrivate w/o logging in 15:14 < jwb> mmcgrath, no... let me post a screenshot 15:14 < mmcgrath> warren: unlike moin, mediawiki has a full and documented api (someone has even written a fuse filesystem for it I hear) as well as a good plugin/extensions system. 15:15 < mmcgrath> Aside from dennis hating the markup, is anyone against this? 15:15 < mmcgrath> poelcat: ping (thought you might want to know we're talking about this) 15:15 < skvidal> and an xml-rpc interface iirc 15:15 < notting> i am very ambivalent 15:15 < jwb> mmcgrath, http://jwboyer.fedorapeople.org/Screenshot.png 15:15 < notting> what do our most prominent wiki-ans think? 15:15 < skvidal> notting: eat more roughage 15:15 < ivazquez> I'm not against it, but that script needs quite a bit more tweaking. 15:15 < abadger1999> Do we know how it will scale under load? Will the db be a bottleneck? 15:16 < yingbull> mmcgrath: I'm either way, but if it performs better that's good. Can we QA that? 15:16 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: we using mysql on the backend? 15:16 < iWolf> I just wonder if we will end up with a whole other set of problems. 15:16 * abadger1999 wonders how new install smolt checkins and release day wiki traffic will work out 15:16 < mmcgrath> jwb: thats just the tables not being converted right, its still a work in progress. 15:16 < warren> iWolf, scalability wont be one of them... 15:16 < dgilmore> abadger1999: we should be able to cluster that. and if we are using mysql thats pretty easy to do 15:16 < ivazquez> iWolf: I don't doubt we will. It's just a matter of deciding which set we can live with. 15:17 < yingbull> Would the mediawiki use an existing mysql farm, or would it have its own servers? 15:17 < notting> what do the docs people think? 15:17 < jwb> mmcgrath, ok... i won't go posting that link profusely ;) 15:17 < mmcgrath> yingbull: yes, you can do a search on it now and its way way faster. 15:17 < mmcgrath> jwb: ;-) 15:17 < warren> Has moin ever corrupted itself? 15:17 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: right now yeah. I don't want to put anything else on postgres for the time being. 15:17 < mmcgrath> warren: yes. 15:17 < yingbull> mmcgrath: that means its scales for content size, just wondering about actual load. 15:17 < warren> mmcgrath, how often? 15:17 < mmcgrath> warren depends, why? 15:17 < warren> just wondering 15:17 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: :) i personally much prefer mysql 15:17 < abadger1999> dgilmore: heh. I've had nothing but pain from clustering mysql but it could be how it was being used. 15:17 < warren> mmcgrath, because I would expect that from a non-RDBMS multi-user concurrent system 15:18 < mmcgrath> warren: In fairness though the times it got corrupt we were probably doing stupid things, there's been tickets about badness getting stuck in logs, people's accoutns not working right, etc. 15:18 < dgilmore> abadger1999: ive had success in the past clustering it 15:18 < dgilmore> ive not tried postgres 15:18 < mmcgrath> the other thing I like about mediawiki is we have multiple options for scaling, caching, clustering, etc. 15:18 < warren> and they take security seriously 15:18 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i do like that 15:19 < dgilmore> warren: they have to its php 15:19 < skvidal> dgilmore: :) 15:19 < warren> I'm guessing we would wall this into its own VM guest with strict selinux policies. 15:19 < mmcgrath> So if I went to other teams and said "The infrastructure team would like to migrate to mediawiki" Thats not a false statement as far as anyone here is concerned? 15:19 < abadger1999> +1 15:19 < warren> +1 15:19 < yingbull> Sounds good. 15:19 < lmacken> +1 15:19 < J5> +1 15:20 < lmacken> what about plone! 15:20 < lmacken> (j/k) 15:20 < EvilBob> yeah thanks 15:20 < mmcgrath> ok, I'll get that conversation started to the various wiki users. 15:20 < skvidal> +1 15:20 < iWolf> +0 (defers to the more active members) 15:20 < glezos> mmcgrath: +1 from the L10n part -- will get back to you with more info in a week, after I meet with the mediawiki i18n folks at FOSDEM. 15:20 < ivazquez> +1 15:20 < mmcgrath> Its not a done deal that we'll move but if we can satisfy all of the teams, it will be. 15:20 < asgeirf> 0 :) 15:20 < glezos> I wonder whether the fact that mediawiki being a very active upstream project will make it harder for us to push any code of ours there 15:20 < mmcgrath> oh! 15:20 < mmcgrath> that reminds me. 15:21 < warren> glezos, nothing can be harder than upstream moin who doesn't want any contributions 15:21 < ivazquez> It might also mean that it's less necessary. 15:21 < skvidal> ivazquez: +1 15:21 < mmcgrath> glezos talked to some of the mediawiki guys and will be talking to them at fosdem (i think) so even before we deploy it, there might be a strong partnership between the Fedora Project and the mediawiki guys. Which is a very good thing and in stark contrast to the relationship with moin-upstream. 15:21 < dgilmore> +1 15:21 < iWolf> mmcgrath: that's a good thing 15:21 * abadger1999 changes his vote to +100 :-) 15:22 < mmcgrath> heh 15:22 < glezos> mmcgrath: the mediawiki guys have been *very* positive in discussing and looking at the issues we'll have, especially in terms of translations. 15:22 < mmcgrath> ok, well, there's not much else to talk about there, I'm going to continue working on that script. I've got to get the tables working right. I'll try to get back with mizmo to see about a better template for that place. 15:22 < glezos> I'll make sure to report back with the meeting's points. 15:22 < mmcgrath> glezos: I'm happy to hear that. 15:22 < mmcgrath> ok, next topic 15:23 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Fedora Hosted. 15:23 < mmcgrath> Two things here. 15:23 < spoleeba> telecon done 15:23 < mmcgrath> first, we now have mtn support on fedorahosted + trac - https://fedorahosted.org/elfutils/browser 15:23 < mmcgrath> spoleeba: excellent. 15:23 < mmcgrath> The next (and bigger thing) 15:24 < mmcgrath> serverbeach (who provides all the hosting for fedorahosted) would like to do a joint pressrelease about fedorahosted. 15:24 < dgilmore> we are taking on sourceforge? 15:24 < dgilmore> :) cool 15:24 < mmcgrath> The last bit that we'd need to get done AFAIK, is the mailing lists which jcollie is extremely close to completing. 15:24 < mmcgrath> https://fedorahosted.org/mailman/listinfo 15:24 < warren> yay! 15:24 < mmcgrath> Once thats available, I think we should do the announcement. 15:24 < mmcgrath> f13: what do you think? 15:24 < warren> mmcgrath, does that mean we have our own MTA? control our own spam filtering? 15:24 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: sounds good 15:25 < mmcgrath> warren: we have that now, just no one's implemented the spam filtering. 15:25 < spoleeba> mmcgrath, i officially have no problem with a joint press-release...do we get to look at it first? 15:25 < f13> hrm. 15:25 < warren> mmcgrath, ok, I'm very interested in that part. 15:25 < mmcgrath> spoleeba: I'm sure we could, max and paul are already involved in all of that. 15:25 < f13> there was one more thing I wanted done before we left 'beta' stage. 15:25 < f13> that was raw webspace for hosted projects. 15:25 * mmcgrath actually wanted to not provide that. 15:26 < warren> we need that if we're going to have a complete upstream hosting solution 15:26 < mmcgrath> f13: how much storage space did you have in mind for that? I figured the wiki would be enough. 15:26 < f13> mmcgrath: wiki eh? 15:27 < mmcgrath> f13: if we're going to do that we need to come up with a solution quick, they want to do the release soon unless thats the sort of thing that doesn't block the official announcement. 15:27 < iWolf> It could always be a later feature enhancement. 15:27 < f13> we have a working model in what seth setup for fedorapeople... 15:28 < mmcgrath> f13: we do have https://fedorahosted.org/releases/p/y/python-fedora/ 15:28 < skvidal> we could nfs export across the vpn :) 15:28 < mmcgrath> f13: except that working model uses full shell accounts. 15:28 < mmcgrath> something which would require us to completely re-design our security settings. 15:29 < f13> mmcgrath: the wiki is a bit harder to automate attaching to 15:29 < f13> but it's not the worst option in the world. 15:29 < mmcgrath> f13: no need to attach to the wiki, we have the releases ability now. 15:29 < mmcgrath> people can scp the files they want up there. 15:29 < f13> mmcgrath: uh... so the people who are doing fedora hosted projects /already have/ fedora people space. 15:29 < warren> mmcgrath, and using fedorapeople can we sustainably have multiple upstream project developers put files in a repository and get permissions right? 15:29 < f13> I'm not sure what you're afraid of. 15:30 < warren> f13, 2 or more people working on the same project? 15:30 < skvidal> warren: acls 15:30 < f13> mmcgrath: I would have hoped the webspace would be more like 'python-fedora.fedorahosted.org/' 15:30 < glezos> f13: that does sound like a nice feature to have for a hosted solution. 15:31 < mmcgrath> f13: is this something you really want to block the announcement? if it is we need to come up with a solution for it now. 15:31 < skvidal> f13: A couple of hangups 15:31 * jcollie is back 15:31 < skvidal> 1. we need a box 15:31 < notting> how is fedorahosted.org/releases populated now? 15:31 * mmcgrath thinks this is something we "could" do but shouldn't. 15:31 < skvidal> 2. we need to say explicitly to the users: no php, cgi, etc 15:31 < f13> mmcgrath: I'd be ok announcing it, if we have at least agreed upon a future feature of having hosted raw webspace. 15:31 < warren> f13, we wouldn't want to put upstream project tarballs into the mirror structure? 15:32 < notting> f13: nah 15:32 < notting> erm 15:32 < notting> warren: nah 15:32 < warren> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/projects/ 15:32 < mmcgrath> notting: its in the faq. If you don't have an actual shell on there (which most people don't) you just 'scp filename-1.0.tar.gz fedorahosted.org:projectName' some voodoo on the backend sends it to the right place. 15:32 < warren> If we mirror it, we don't need to back it up. =) 15:32 < mmcgrath> warren: we could announce to mirrors its available though, run rsync fedorahosted:: 15:32 < mmcgrath> its in there and available to be synced out. 15:32 < warren> mm 15:32 < f13> mmcgrath: can we do dns tricks so that <project>.fedorahosted.org works ? 15:33 < f13> I know it's asthetics but it /does/ look better 15:33 < mmcgrath> f13: what would people see at project.fedorahosted.org ? 15:33 < mmcgrath> the trac instance? 15:33 < f13> mmcgrath: anybody reading a spec file. 15:33 < lmacken> can we assume most of the fedorahosted projects are actually in Fedora? if so, new releases can just entail pushing into fedora. Then we wouldn't need raw webspace ? 15:33 < f13> mmcgrath: spec files reference the url to the tarball release 15:33 < f13> lmacken: that is terrible for cross-distro 15:34 < f13> lmacken: it's extremely rude to tell Debian "get the tarball from the source rpm in Fedora release Blah" 15:34 < mmcgrath> f13: no I mean if I typed project.fedorahosted.org into my browser, what comes up? 15:34 < lmacken> not if we link to the tarballs ? 15:34 < f13> mmcgrath: directory listing of https://fedorahosted.org/releases/p/y/python-fedora/ 15:34 < mmcgrath> lmacken: besides, we already have that 15:34 < skvidal> f13: not the hosted page? 15:34 < lmacken> or somehow autopopulate builds onto the wiki 15:34 < f13> ok, wait 15:34 < mmcgrath> ahhh 15:34 < skvidal> f13: ie: not the wiki instance? 15:34 < f13> in my /grand/ thought 15:34 * mmcgrath sees what f13 is saying here. 15:35 < f13> <projectname>.fedorahosted.org would lead to raw webspace that hte project could do whatever within our rules 15:35 < f13> a pretty page 15:35 < f13> fedorahosted.org/project/ leads you to Trac 15:35 < f13> which often isn't nearly as pretty 15:35 < f13> and yes, this is a lot like how sourceforge works. 15:35 * mmcgrath thinks thats confusing. 15:35 < mmcgrath> so what is koji's home page? 15:36 < f13> mmcgrath: it depends on what the project wnats to do 15:36 < f13> mmcgrath: making every project's home page the Trac instance is kind of lame 15:36 < skvidal> f13: why? 15:36 < mmcgrath> thats confusing though, some projects will use project.fh.o some will use fh.o/project If I want to check out elfutils, how will I know which one to go to? 15:37 < f13> mmcgrath: you're coming at this with prior knowledge that elfutils is hosted with us 15:37 < f13> mmcgrath: invalid use case. 15:37 < f13> mmcgrath: people who are looking for the upstream of elfutils is going ot read the elfutils spec or documentation or whatever and be directed at their homepage 15:37 < f13> or you'll pull up the Trac instance which teh wiki there could say "See <here> for our homepage" 15:38 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk 15:38 < mmcgrath> f13: I even know elfutils is hosted with us because they told me, now I want to see it. Which one do I go to? 15:38 < warren> mmcgrath, even downloading tarballs from sourceforge is a bit ambiguous because people have different URL's depending on how they downloaded it 15:39 < warren> mmcgrath, if we want to eliminate different URL's then we have to enforce it with redirects. 15:39 -!- stickster_afk is now known as stickster 15:39 < notting> w.r.t download space, if all we have is the wiki, how are files pushed through that, and does tracwiki scale for serving lots of large files? 15:39 * f13 sees this discussion going nowhere in a hurry 15:39 < mmcgrath> notting: actually the wiki is horrible for pushing files. 15:39 < lmacken> right now elfutils points directly to koji for new releases. 15:39 < abadger1999> f13: Are we more like launchpador sourceforge? 15:39 < f13> mmcgrath: 'the wiki' are you talking about Moin or Trac? 15:39 < abadger1999> (Where we want to be) 15:39 * mmcgrath doesn't compare us to either of them. 15:39 < mmcgrath> f13: Trac. 15:39 < f13> IIRC Trac just is a direct link to the attachment on the filesystem 15:40 < warren> Ubuntu doenst bother to make tarballs, they build directly from bzr on launchpad for things that they are upstream. 15:40 < f13> abadger1999: I'm more familiar with sf. 15:40 < f13> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pidgin vs pidgin.sf.net 15:41 < f13> hrm, perhaps not the best example 15:41 < abadger1999> Just wondering because sf provides web space via shell access while launchpad provides an external links section where you can list a home page if you want more than they provide. 15:41 < f13> but when I dreampt up fedora hosted, I pictured Trac as one of the tools a hosted project would have, not the /only/ tool. 15:41 * warren entirely supports f13 on this. 15:42 < f13> and where a number of projects might have a rich home page for users, and use the Trac instance as a development tool 15:42 * mmcgrath saw it as a simple and complete set of tools. 15:42 < notting> ferexample, we may have a project that wants just 1) download space 2) git + gitweb 3) a mailing list. how does trac help them? 15:42 < f13> that said, maybe our "customers" are perfectly happy with only having Trac. 15:42 < mmcgrath> f13: what can you do on raw space that you can't do with trac wiki? 15:42 < skvidal> mmcgrath: well, the page controls are better 15:42 < mmcgrath> notting: FWIW, we have lots of people that don't have a trac instance. 15:42 < f13> mmcgrath: html, easily manage content programatically 15:42 < skvidal> f13: umm 15:42 < skvidal> wait 15:43 < lmacken> Hmm.. I've seen trac used as a pretty functional homepage as well 15:43 < lmacken> http://cherrypy.org 15:43 < warren> and some people don't want trac at all because it can be a distraction 15:43 < skvidal> f13: are we talking about RAW stuff like php or cgis b/c that's not bloody likely 15:43 < notting> mmcgrath: right, but if they want to tie together a link to gitweb, a link to the ML, etc. ... trac is the only solution atm 15:43 < mmcgrath> The bottom line is we can't provide everything to everyone. 15:43 < mmcgrath> we have a "web" solution do we need 2? 15:43 < f13> skvidal: no of course not, there would be restriction around what could be used. 15:43 < warren> Hosted should be a menu of services that upstream projects can pick from. 15:43 < mmcgrath> warren: it is and will be. 15:43 < mmcgrath> but whats on the menu? 15:43 < f13> lets look at 108 as a great example 15:44 < f13> people hated 108 because to get anything on the web, they either had to fuck with wiki, or svn 15:44 < f13> what they really wanted was the ability to just rsync (via ssh) content into a dir 15:44 * mmcgrath is pretty sure thats not why people hated 108 15:44 < mmcgrath> it was closed source and complicated. Trac is neither of those. 15:44 < f13> mmcgrath: that was on eof the big complaints I heard from a lot of people trying to use it to host projects. 15:44 < f13> mmcgrath: from the usability side 15:44 < mmcgrath> Ok, lets take a step back. 15:44 < mmcgrath> is this a blocker to the announcement? 15:45 < skvidal> not imo 15:45 < f13> I'm leaning toward no, as long as we have a roadmap for something like this we can make public 15:45 < warren> We should at least define exactly what we want and write it as a "coming soon" feature on the roadmap. 15:45 < mmcgrath> Ok, then we should discuss this at another time. 15:45 < notting> yeah, as long as we have a plan so we can tell people 'yes', 'no', 'yes, but in 3 months' when they ask for foo, bar, or baz 15:45 * mmcgrath is already tired of the slippery slope we're headed down with fedorahosted. 15:45 * ricky gets here. 15:46 < mmcgrath> everything some says 'wouldn't it be nice" we've implemented the feature, its got to stop. There is beauty in simplicity. 15:46 * f13 notes that he's been making noise about having web space for projects since day 1. 15:46 < mmcgrath> and some how, over 100 projects have thrived while not having web space. 15:46 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: i want a pony 15:46 < f13> mmcgrath: uh, other than adding additional SCMs, and a couple trac plugins, what exactly ahve we done? 15:46 < mmcgrath> f13: I'm sorry I just don't remember that at all. I'm probably rembering it wrong but I don't remember anything about raw webspace ever. 15:46 < warren> mmcgrath, this is one of the few things that we really need to make hosted complete. 15:47 < J5> I have to agree. By giving people the world we make it harder to create a good experience 15:47 < mmcgrath> f13: just that. I want to make sure it stops there. 15:47 < mmcgrath> warren: I think hosted is complete. 15:47 < notting> is the scp fedorahosted:blah magic work for anything? 15:47 < notting> or just blah-1.2.3.tar.gz? 15:47 < mmcgrath> notting: only if you don't have a shell account. 15:47 < mmcgrath> scp anything fedorahosted:project 15:47 -!- mbacovsk [n=mbacovsk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has quit Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) 15:47 < mmcgrath> warren: excpet for mailing. 15:47 < notting> so we have webspace ;) 15:47 < warren> f13, I do recall that from day 1 as well. 15:47 < warren> mmcgrath, which is already on the roadmap 15:48 < f13> mmcgrath: perhaps we should survey our current customers, and potential customers (108 holdouts, et.redhat.com folks, people.redhat.com folks) about it. 15:48 < mmcgrath> f13: I think thats the wrong way to go. We need to have in mind a solution that we want it to be. If its the right tool for those people they will come, if not they won't. 15:48 < dgilmore> f13: most if not all people haviing people.redhat.com space ahve fedorapeople.org space 15:48 < mmcgrath> we can't conform to everyone's needs on this or it will consume ALL of our time like 108's did the 108 people. 15:49 < skvidal> okay 15:49 < skvidal> let's chill 15:49 < skvidal> everyone 15:49 < warren> mmcgrath, this is not a slippery slope. Raw web space is one of the fixed set of things people expect for an upstream project. 15:49 < dgilmore> skvidal: :) 15:49 < mmcgrath> this is a free 'value added' fedora service. If we end up spending lots of time on it, thats less time for other things. 15:49 < dgilmore> lets move on now 15:49 < skvidal> yes 15:49 < skvidal> we're not blocking announcing it 15:49 < skvidal> we can sort this out later 15:49 < dgilmore> no we can announce as is 15:49 < skvidal> on a day when we're all less busy 15:49 < dgilmore> i think its done being a beta 15:49 < skvidal> and less stress-y 15:49 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Asterisk 15:50 < dgilmore> :) it works 15:50 < skvidal> we'll learn a lot about what people want from tickets 15:50 < mmcgrath> The Board has put a higher priority on our asterisk setup. 15:50 < skvidal> eyeroll 15:50 < skvidal> sorry, the board has an asterisk fetish for odd reasons :) 15:50 < mmcgrath> asterisk as it stands has enough shortcommings that it won't be usable for us without a few things. 15:50 < spoleeba> skvidal, i have an n810 now.. id like to use it for..something 15:50 < mmcgrath> 1) they've requested town-hall style meetings. 15:50 < dgilmore> skvidal: we do 15:50 < skvidal> dgilmore: :) 15:50 < mmcgrath> jcollie: do you want to talk about that for a moment and the implementation you tested? 15:50 < jcollie> ujh sure 15:50 < jcollie> erg 15:51 < jcollie> it's ticket 395 15:51 < mmcgrath> .ticket 395 15:51 < mmcgrath> :) 15:51 < zodbot> mmcgrath: #395 (Audio Streaming of Fedora Board Conference Calls) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/395 15:52 < jcollie> basically the board wants to have some conferences calls streamed out so that 10s or maybe even 100s of people can listen in live 15:52 < dgilmore> taking feedback via irc 15:52 < jcollie> so i've figured out a way to get the audio out of the asterisk conference call and stream it using flumotion 15:53 < dgilmore> jcollie: and its all FOSS? 15:53 < jcollie> yup 15:53 < dgilmore> streaming ogg 15:53 < spoleeba> jcollie, thats a nice valentines day present 15:53 < jcollie> its streaming ogg/vorbis right now but i was going to test ogg/speex 15:54 < jcollie> fluendo even has a java applet for those unfortunate to be running windows 15:54 < jcollie> the java applet is gpl too i think 15:54 < dgilmore> cool 15:54 < warren> bbl 15:54 * mmcgrath notes he used this system the other day. It actually worked, rather well. 15:54 < jcollie> the java applet isn't in fedora yet but i have a srpm under development 15:55 < lmacken> good deal 15:55 < ivazquez> Does IcedTea support audio yet? 15:55 < glezos> jcollie: sounds great 15:55 < spoleeba> jcollie, so where is it at right now? does all the board members need to test it? 15:55 < jcollie> also, i'd prefer to use a development version of flumotion than what is in fedora right now but i'm not stuck on that 15:55 < mmcgrath> spoleeba: its not at that point yet 15:55 < mmcgrath> our asterisk deployment isn't even official yet, we'll need to get that finalized and in puppet before we start considering these things. 15:56 < jcollie> i just did a technology preview to see if i could get the audio out of asterisk and into flumotion 15:56 < spoleeba> mmcgrath, the big concern was making sure connected audio source clients...weren't stupidly configed 15:56 < jcollie> yeah, we need to make sure that all the board members have decent headsets and a working SIP client setup 15:56 < spoleeba> jcollie, ha! 15:56 < spoleeba> jcollie, 'decent' 15:57 < jcollie> the mics built into laptops pick up too much ambient noise 15:57 < poelcat> mmcgrath: sorry on another call... yay for Mediawiki :) 15:57 < jcollie> spoleeba: actually you can get by with some really cheap ones - i use these generic labtec ones 15:57 < spoleeba> jcollie, i want to test my n810 :-> 15:57 < mmcgrath> I'm actually working on trying to get some dial in numbers for that. We'll see how it goes but areacodes in boston and raleigh would help a lot. 15:57 < jcollie> so no need to spend $100s 15:58 < spoleeba> jcollie, just let me know when you wwant me to test it 15:58 < jcollie> dial in numbers should be pretty easy to find 15:58 < notting> 888-fed-ora1? 15:58 < skvidal> umm 15:58 < skvidal> eww 15:58 < dgilmore> most of the board brought headsets when we looked at using asterisk for board meetings 15:58 -!- jmtaylor [n=jason@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] has joined #fedora-meeting 15:58 < mmcgrath> notting: the 888 numbers require per minute charges. 15:59 < mmcgrath> Ok, hey guys we're running out of time. There's a couple of other things I wanted to get to. 15:59 < dgilmore> notting: we have to pay for that 15:59 < jcollie> i'm also thinking about using an IRC bot to control the conference 15:59 < dgilmore> jcollie: awesome 15:59 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: move on 15:59 < mmcgrath> jcollie: sorry to cut you off :( 15:59 < jcollie> yeah, the board doesn't want to do this until sometime in april anyway 15:59 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- FAS2 15:59 < mmcgrath> we're moving to database with that, abadger1999 has been very helpful and ricky and I will be back on it hard core next week. 15:59 < mmcgrath> and last thing 16:00 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- My Fedora 16:00 < mmcgrath> J5: how's that going? 16:00 * mmcgrath hopes J5 is still around. 16:00 < J5> been working on the build page - it has been slow since I am learning new things 16:00 < J5> But it is coming on nicely 16:00 < mmcgrath> is there a demo up anywhere yet? 16:01 < J5> just in git 16:01 < J5> I'll get something up by next week 16:01 < J5> the end of next week that is 16:01 < mmcgrath> <nod> no worries. Do you have an ETA for when you'd like to deploy? 16:01 < ricky> Probably sometime after FAS2, I assume? 16:01 < J5> yes 16:02 < J5> well we can get the non-login stuff (it is still useful for searching packages and quickly navigating them) 16:02 < mmcgrath> <nod> 16:02 < J5> before fas2 16:02 < mmcgrath> J5: thanks for that. 16:02 < mmcgrath> alrighty, before we go 16:02 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Open Floor. 16:02 < mmcgrath> Anyone have anything else? 16:02 < skvidal> how about them backups? 16:03 < mmcgrath> ahh, yes dgilmore has been working on backups. 16:03 < skvidal> yay for all the work dgilmore and mmcgrath put in to make tape backups work 16:03 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: how's that going? 16:03 < dgilmore> skvidal: the backup on /mnt/koji is running very slowly 16:03 * mmcgrath notes tapes are in and AFAIK backing. 16:03 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: how long do you suspect a full koji backup will take? 16:03 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: at the rate we are going days 16:03 < mmcgrath> how many though? 16:04 < jcollie> what kind of tape hw do we have? 16:04 < mmcgrath> its a TL2000 with LTO-3 tapes. 16:04 < jcollie> are we still using bacula? 16:04 < dgilmore> since 10pm cst we have backed up 300gb of 2tb 16:04 < dgilmore> jcollie: yeah 16:05 < jcollie> this just uses a single LTO drive then? 16:05 < mmcgrath> jcollie: yeah. 16:05 < mmcgrath> dgilmore: anything else? We should probably wrap it up. 16:05 < jcollie> hmm too bad 16:06 < dgilmore> mmcgrath: its running and is working 16:06 < dgilmore> we will need to do some test restores 16:06 < mmcgrath> yeah 16:06 < dgilmore> but thats it 16:07 < mmcgrath> k. 16:07 * mmcgrath looks forward to that. 16:07 < mmcgrath> Ok, anyone have anything else? 16:07 * dgilmore has nothing 16:07 < jcollie> nope 16:08 < mmcgrath> allllllrighty 16:08 -!- mmcgrath changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Infrastructure -- Meeting Closed
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