On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 07:09:57AM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote: > > What do you think? > First, sorry that this email probably doesn't thread will with either > one or the other target mailing lists... I had to pick one to thread > with, and other slightly loses. The downside of the initial email not > being sent to both MLs at once. :( Yeah, I decided to send the message to both lists roughly simultaneously rather than cross-post because I figured only a few of us are subscribed to both. I see you went the other way, so we'll see how that goes in this subthread. :) > In concept, I certainly see value in bringing CentOS and Fedora > closer. However, I think eliminating Fedora variants in favor of > CentOS Stream ones (aka rhel-rawhide based variants) is probably > premature. There are several issues with doing this as it currently > stands: To be clear, I don't think this should be done in a rush. I hope to convince poeple that it's a good idea in principle and then work to get there. > 1. CentOS Koji is pretty closed to a couple of folks in CentOS and Red > Hat. This also includes blocking the download of artifacts from Koji. > For reasons I don't understand, CentOS is still gated by the RHEL QE > folks, and thus RPMs built in Koji cannot be downloaded until they are > finally published. This ruins any testing/development before releasing I think this is a temporary state while opening up previously-internal development to CentOS Stream. There are plenty of security and partner-privacy related issues that need to be solved and I don't blame Red Hat (or CentOS!) for taking that slowly. > 2. The CentOS community is simply not mature enough to take on the > role Fedora does in any meaningful capacity. We already know that this > is a problem even with Fedora EPEL, and I strongly believe the issue > would be massively magnified if those transitioned to the CentOS > Project. The CentOS community is largely a user community that takes This is an area where both communities can learn from our separate experiences, expertise, and strengths. Well, this and also your point 3 below. > What I'm more concerned about is that if you eliminate Fedora from any > meaningful server based development, you strip all the opportunities Wait wait wait -- I'm not suggesting that. We *definitely* still need a voice for server development in Fedora. I'm just not sure a user-focused Edition is the right thing for it. Although I agree that Fedora has advanced leaps and bounds in terms of being suitable for server use in the Fedora.next era (and therefore a better upstream for RHEL and CentOS!), none of the user-focused feature ideas of Fedora Server (like Roles) really stuck. > doesn't, it's fixable! That last part is key. With CentOS, it's not, > because it has to bounce back into Red Hat first. And Red Hat doesn't > really care about issues discovered by CentOS users, and there are no > "CentOS developers". CentOS Stream is about changing that -- the caring about issues discovered by users, at least, and possibly to some degree development, although not "major release" development. > So, what this long email is actually saying is that I think it's an > interesting idea to bring the two projects together, but eliminating > aspects of Fedora in favor of CentOS is premature because CentOS has > not actually developed as a community project. Maybe it's worth > revisiting after six years of actual community development? I guess I'd like to get us working together sooner rather than trying to reconcile after another six months or a year, where decisions made for perfectly good reasons could end up making things harder later. -- Matthew Miller <mattdm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Fedora Project Leader _______________________________________________ council-discuss mailing list -- council-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to council-discuss-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/council-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
