On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1 July 2014 11:52, Josh Boyer <jwboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Stephen John Smoogen <smooge@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > This is the problem with asking about success.. you have to deal with
>> > 'failure' as it becomes more likely if you are going to be ambitious.
>>
>> Dealing with failure should be something we do regardless of the reach of
>> goals.
>>
>
> Yes it should, but (1) this is a big ship and (2) it looks like a sieve when
> you are inside it. Speaking as a former board member, we tend towards
> plugging the leak and getting to the next one versus anything that survives
> 1-2 releases. We tend towards saying we want to define success and then
> after the release getting caught up in the latest
> fedora-devel/ambassadors/FUDCON operatics and by the time that is dealt with
> not having gotten back to what we were going to try and measure in the first
> place.
Sounds like a problem with how the Board is composed and operating,
not with the Project's ability to do this in and of itself. I say
that as a both a former and current Board member.
>> > Personally I would prefer us to push more on how we deal with 'failure'
>> > and
>> > embrace it. How do we learn from it, how do we incorporate it into our
>> > structure and push more towards 'we are aiming to be the #1 choice for
>> > developers/system administrators' but knowing we are going to fail a lot
>> > to
>> > get there and most likely fail in the goal itself.. instead we focus
>> > more on
>> > the journey.
>> >
>> > Hope the above makes some sort of sense.
>>
>> It makes sense, but it isn't particularly helpful in answering the
>> question. Saying "deal with failure" without having targets to reach
>> or miss is as ambiguous as talking about success. If you have some
>> goals you think would be measurable, please continue with those.
>>
>
> Well the first thing is figuring out the following:
>
> 1) What can be measured and how is it measured.
> 2) Which things that can be measured mean anything and which ones are
> 'fluff'. {A}.
> 3) A definition of success that can be used towards each of those
> measurements and a mitigation plan for failure.
> 4) Who gets the full time job to manage each goal. {B}
>
> Anyway, what I would like for a goal is a full usability test after each
> release with the results incorporated into the next release. This means that
> a set of tests are defined as what meets 'usability'... they are tested
> using documented methods by a defined 'third' party (mostly to deal with
> 'Well the 'Z group' people would of course say this passed usability and I
> still can't get this to work). The results are published, discussed and a
> plan to work towards fixing whatever 'pain' points came out of the tests are
> to be met. Also each year, the tests are meant to be more comprehensive so
> that if we only test login/logout release A, then A+1 its login/logout, find
> app/launch app/close app etc (overly simplified).
So this sounds very desktop-centric. Would you like to see
corresponding usability tests for Cloud and Server as well?
Is there anything beyond "Fedora is a decently usable Linux distro"
you would like to see the Project reach for? I'm asking because while
I have no problem with your proposal at face value, it seems very much
in line with what we're already doing and have been doing for a long
time. Churn out another release, adjust for the next one.
> {A} Two ones I can give you as almost complete fluff is active account
> numbers and web traffic. Account numbers are filled with lots of ghost
> accounts of either people using the account to try and measure how active
> Fedora is for their own analytics company, to spammers, to one time
> contributors who got interested and never went beyond that. [Or the string
> of revenge accounts that seem to have been coming up where some ex-boyfriend
> signs up their ex to various places as the equivalent of signing them up for
> magazines they didn't want] The second fluff is website traffic. It takes a
> lot of work to figure out what is really important and how it is used. We
> have a ton of wiki articles which are 'dead' (old releases, content which
> doesn't make sense with current release, users who no longer exist, etc)
> they actually get a lot of traffic... why? some of it is bots, some of it is
> someone set up an archive cron job of webpages they mirror and forgot about
> it, etc etc. [Or the helpful new user who wants to show that Fedora is more
> popular than Ubuntu and sets up a bunch of amazon machines to push page
> views up... that thankfully hasn't happened in a couple of years but used to
> when we put up stats.]
I agree account numbers as a metric is fluff-ish, but _active_ account
numbers as defined by a suitable activity metric can be helpful. E.g.
if we can define what it takes for an account to be considered a
"Contributor", then we can measure the number and kinds of
contributors we have which is important to know for long term success.
> {B} This is the one that has pretty much killed this in the past with
> boards. We talked about it and then eventually realized that it was going to
> take a full-time person for most goals to actively be met. We tried having a
> board-member assigned to it, but once it gets over 10-15 hours a week of
> work... it falls into the 'I have a real job which needs me to do something
> people'. What we could accomplish was the general... 'did we release a
> distro that was bootable, workable, and generally were happy with' because
> we had people who were already full-time to make sure that goal was met.
People don't need to be on the Board to track and drive towards goals.
I would argue that the reason this failed in the past is because of
how it was approached.
josh
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